A Trio of 2.2 Tidbits

[.Luke]

Announcement threads seem to be more like peanut galleries on these forums. Of course, I laugh at them now instead of get annoyed by it. Otherwise, the Internet's good at giving you things to be mad about all the time.

As for Super Forms in match, I'm still surprised they made it in in the first place. I only ever tried screwing around with them in private, where it was easier to collect enough emeralds to turn them on. Got bored and went back to Botanic Serenity or something.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Mystic

I know we've been over this on IRC, but I guess we've forgotten to mention it on the forums: match super forms are headed to the scrap yard.

There are a bunch of reasons why, but the most important one is that match supers are the worst kind of win-more mechanic. The player who is already winning is the only person who ever gets to experience the mechanic, and it just makes them even more completely unstoppable.

In case you all haven't noticed, one of the things we're actively trying to do to match is make it less harsh on the losers. 2.1's pity shield mechanic is the first step towards that, but we're going to be continuing to push for less mechanics that actively punish the losing players. Super forms are actively going against that policy.

Hence, since we're planning to delete them, we're not planning any changes to them.

This is really sad and disheartening to read. The emeralds are one of the cooler, Sonic-ier additions to match since ever, and it's really dumb to lose such an awesome feature because the balance is currently broken. I ask, why not just re-balance them if that's the problem? Make them easier to lose and pass over, limit their power and duration, hell, make them a glass cannon if you feel you need to. Just don't get rid of a feature that breaks the monotony in an ultimately very repetitive game.

[Rob]

The problem is that it still doesn't eliminate the win-more issue that the emeralds actually cause. Each of those suggestions still creates an advantage to the player doing the best, and makes it much harder for the other players to deal with. The issue is that there's an inherent imbalance when you create a mechanic that seriously and blatantly rewards you for doing well and does nothing for other players.

If, on the other hand, we were to implement some sort of system where getting the chaos emeralds granted a decent score bonus or something, they would feel less win-more because that does nothing negative to less skilled players other than having them fall behind some more. The payoff here would be that it's much less in-your-face that someone is doing well and you don't have this big glaring message on your screen saying "X became super" and rub defeat in your face even further.

[glaber]

what if the multiplayer emeralds spawned multiple copies of the same emerald? if you have the emerald already, you can't pick it up, and if you have all 7, your time limit is based on ring count at activation only, meaning that a new counter for super time would appear. (possibly like the currently broken special stage timer)

you wouldn't be able to collect the emeralds again until you run out of super time, and of course getting hit would reduce how much super time you have left.

With this system you could also make it so that players keep their collected emeralds while hit, but loose them if killed.

[Mystic]

The only way the match super mechanic could be fixed is completely redoing it entirely, and honestly, I'm of the opinion that our match and CTF gameplay is already too complicated. For some details and way too many words, read on:

• First and foremost, the mechanic helps the player that's winning because of the central mechanic, where players that get hit drop the emeralds that they're carrying. This mirrors all the other things players drop when hit, but it has a few other quirks when applied to the emeralds:
  • Because the player has to be in melee range to steal the emeralds, the mechanic completely excludes Tails. I have NEVER seen a Tails manage to activate Super. The only time I've ever seen Super Tails in match is when you could change character and therefore switch to Tails after getting all the emeralds.
  • Emeralds push stealing the opponent's stuff even more than our mechanics already did. While stealing stuff from people should be a relevant gameplay mechanic, it shouldn't be the most important mechanic in the game.
  • Emeralds scale very badly to different game sizes. In a 1v1 game, the emeralds are basically the ONLY important part of the game. Once you have all seven emeralds, you win. In a ten player game, they're completely irrelevant and it'll never happen, so don't even bother. Even if you DO get lucky and pull it off in a large game, it's incredibly weak in such a game.
• When I noticed these problems, I started trying to come up with some alternative methods of triggering Super to try to handle this issue, but in doing so I realized the problems go way beyond just the method of acquisition of the super mechanic.
  • Super forms are all incredibly overpowered. While originally we thought that the counters in place were enough to handle super, that was because we hadn't figured out how to optimize the mechanic yet. A properly played super can continue the effect as long as they want because the permanent speed boost gives them the power to control when and where to engage other players. Any time a super form is lost in a smaller game is a play mistake of the player who went super.
  • Even worse than just being overpowered, fighting supers is a completely lost cause. Your best play choice facing an opposing super player is to completely ignore them and try to beat them to the pointlimit by attacking everyone else in the game. If you're already so far behind that that isn't a reasonable option, you might as well just AFK until the round is over because it's completely hopeless. It's extremely unfun to be stuck in a game where you already know the result but you have to wait until the game finally tells you the result so you can play again. It's like when a racing game doesn't end when the second to last player comes in and forces the person in last to finish even though there's absolutely no question anymore what the results are.
  • Super Tails and Super Knuckles have TERRIBLE design. This is partly because we never really got around to giving them proper designs but partly because it's incredibly hard to give them mechanics that fit with their abilities and actually give them some real benefit in match. Tails is by far the worse offender with two abilities, one of which is completely useless because of the other.
  • Even in the case where a bad player gets lucky and has the entire set of emeralds recycled to them, they can't take advantage of it. Because the player needs enough experience with match to know how to use the mechanic to be overpowered with it, they'll quickly lose it and get no benefit from it. I once saw someone get recycled all seven emeralds, go super, and lose it literally within two seconds. It's really bad to have a mechanic that is both completely overpowered for some and completely useless for others.

While it sounds like the answer is to then limit the duration of super forms and other similar nerfs, brainstorming comes back to mechanics that are already in the game with similar functions, and are already two fully designed, classic Sonic mechanics that are fulfilling the same role: Super Sneakers and Invincibility. Super Sneakers give players the temporary ability to choose when to engage other players by giving them an increased max speed and acceleration. Invincibility gives players the temporary ability to ignore damage and attack players without fear of repercussions. Both of these are standard, old mechanics which have been around since the beginning and are filling the same niche a temporary super form would carry, only with FAR less complexity and no teaching required.

So while yes, the concept of super forms in match is legitimately cool and I will miss the concept too, I think removing it entirely is for the long-term benefit of the game.

[ZarroTsu]

Originally Posted by Mystic

A properly played super can continue the effect as long as they want because the permanent speed boost gives them the power to control when and where to engage other players.

And lord have mercy on your soul if they have a magnet barrier.


Is there any way to rework the mechanic so only a player who is clearly losing is likely to get super? Like what if the emeralds are clumsily thrown out when you shoot rings (this is dumb), or if the emeralds are somehow tied to the special weapons and awarded for getting hit (this is also dumb, but...).

Actually... Say emeralds were a universal sort of 'rage' mechanic, and say you get one on your HUD for being hit by a weapon ring of a relative type. Then the loser player who gets hit by every weapon ring once can go super-form. Perhaps not related to the number of rings on-hand, since getting the shit kicked out of you won't leave you with many.

[Zero_the_artificial]

I agree with Mystic on this. Super Forms make you OP if you weren't already in matches. And It really broke the flow of the match. I understand the idea to delete them completly, but I will miss a lot to be Super Tails or Super Knuckles.

My suggestion is to delete the emeralds from Match/CTF only. And leave them for Co-op; that way you don't have to delete the super forms entirely. I know that it sounds quirky and stupid at first, but that way, Super Forms are kept for any character.

So yeah, please delete the Emeralds ONLY in Match/CTF. But please let the other Characters transform in Co-op/Singleplayer. That way, the Super Forms are kept (And some people won't be bitching about they can't play Super Tails/Knuckles anymore.)

But hey, that's my suggestion; my idea that makes sense in my stupid little head.

@ZarroTsu: If there was a mechanic that allows a losing player to be more likely to get the Emeralds, then an experienced player can start to fail and get the emeralds and destroy the other players.

[Trolo Bobo]

Originally Posted by Zero_the_artificial

My suggestion is to delete the emeralds from Match/CTF only. And leave them for Co-op; that way you don't have to delete the super forms entirely. I know that it sounds quirky and stupid at first, but that way, Super Forms are kept for any character.

So yeah, please delete the Emeralds ONLY in Match/CTF. But please let the other Characters transform in Co-op/Singleplayer. That way, the Super Forms are kept (And some people won't be bitching about they can't play Super Tails/Knuckles anymore.)

I agree, it's a good idea to make the already-winning players less overpowered, but it would be a shame to see the Super Tails/Knuckles forms disappear forever. Please, try to find a good use for them.

[Dima064]

Now im going to miss Deap Sea
New is shit for me

[Torgo]

I wonder if we can do something like smash brothers, where instead of collecting 7 emeralds, there would be a super ball that is floating around. The super form only lasts a certain amount of time regardless of rings. This would require super tails and knuckles being relevant though, and it might be confusing on how the mechanic would work out. I do wonder sometimes if we should nerf sonic, though I love playing as Sonic because is so powerful.

[BlueParadox]

Originally Posted by Mystic

Posted by Mystic on 02-14-2015 11:36 PM. If only the script worked...

Since apparently we can't have this type of thread without this kind of message, here it is:

Discussing known information and speculating based on that information is okay, but don't go on tangents or make baseless speculation or absurd claims. To start off the thread, here are the answers to the questions I KNOW half of you are dying to ask yet again:

1. There is no release date. Asking will not change that. Making stupid jokes about how long it'll take will get you infracted.
2. The netcode is still just as shitty as it ever was.

Since that's already answered, we don't need to go over it again. With your cooperation, we can actually have a lively, intelligent discussion instead of senseless begging, and I'm pretty sure that's what you all want too, not just me.

Holy shit, that looks amazing! Can't wait!!!

["Lat'"]

Originally Posted by Torgo

I wonder if we can do something like smash brothers, where instead of collecting 7 emeralds, there would be a super ball that is floating around. The super form only lasts a certain amount of time regardless of rings. This would require super tails and knuckles being relevant though, and it might be confusing on how the mechanic would work out. I do wonder sometimes if we should nerf sonic, though I love playing as Sonic because is so powerful.

Well concerning Smash, losing players were sometimes respawning with a ready Final Smash, I think the top-down score player should have this kind of advantage. Also if we had to nerf Supers instead of removing them, I'd say that not allowing any shield over a super could be awesome, This is mostly true if the Super has the Attraction Shield, it basically allows him to stay super as long as he wants to.

[Ultimate]

Originally Posted by Torgo

I wonder if we can do something like smash brothers, where instead of collecting 7 emeralds, there would be a super ball that is floating around.

Hm...how about a super emerald?

[Unknownlight]

Probably more like the Master Emerald, though I don't see this idea working in practice.

[Zero_the_artificial]

How about we bring up again the Eight Emerald? You know, that Black emerald in 1.09.4's debug objectplace. Probably it could be a Super Level, or something. Just a hard as balls level to unlock the Eight Emerald, which allows you to transform as Tails/Knuckles.

I think it would be stupid to add the Super Emeralds, since the game should have a lot more levels to get though another 7 stages. Chances are you might not even be able to get them. Or, you could get them, but use them against Metal Sonic and never again.

[Rob]

Psst, guys, suggestions topic is over here.

[ZarroTsu]

Originally Posted by Zero_the_artificial

@ZarroTsu: If there was a mechanic that allows a losing player to be more likely to get the Emeralds, then an experienced player can start to fail and get the emeralds and destroy the other players.

You say that like strategy in Match mode is a bad thing >:V

Either the experienced player wins through experience or he wins through knowing how to prevent other players from reaching any form of 'balancer' there may be.

I suddenly wonder why some map objects aren't more modular to combat this. Hmm...

[Shad.CM]

As someone who is one of the lower skilled match/ctf players in the SRB2 community, I've had plenty of situations where all I would have to do is hold on to one of the emeralds to keep the super thing from becoming a huge problem for me, and that made the match just fine, not to mention that normally using 1 panel's worth of automatic rings would drain anyone with super considerably to the point where their main focus is nothing but ring collecting. In short I personally never saw a problem with super, but that's just me. The only time I see it as cheap is when someone hosts and collects the emeralds before anyone joins, but meh.

[Demnyx Onyxwing]

Why not just keep the Match/CTF emeralds on a switch like they are now? Personally, I never touch match modes. I understand that it's a huge buff, but technically everybody has an equal chance of getting them. Newcomers to the gamemode won't exactly know where they are, but they still have a chance of getting them. Whether they can keep them or not is based on how well they play. It's like killstreaks in Call of Duty, or TitanFall. You need to be good enough to get the killstreaks. You need to be good enough to get the titan in TitanFall. Whether you're able to get them is based on how well you play. If you're really good, of course you get them. But taking the killstreaks out of Call of Duty, or taking the Titans out of TitanFall, or taking the super out of match modes, pretty much makes the game lose its charm and turns it into a generic shooter with sonic characters. If I want to be able to be rewarded for being able to keep all the emeralds, have 50 rings, through all the projectiles being thrown in a game, I should be able to. Just another personal opinion, but again, I never touch match modes anyway. Someone's probably going to make a WAD that puts the emeralds back in match/ctf, but it should still stay as a toggle swtich.

[golteam]

I expected to see that version 2.2 has a better netcode than the previous ones.