Concerning the "Rail Ring"
- Thread starter Superjustinbros
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You guys are getting rather heated in here. Cool it down several notches. Personally, I think people in here are looking at this as a black and white issue when it really isn't one.
Let's start with the basics: losing at SRB2 match is frustrating. You're probably thinking "duh" right now, but it actually goes farther than that. SRB2 match's mechanics make losing more frustrating than it would be in many other competitive games. Because of the way taking a hit can cause you to drop all your stuff, the players at the bottom of the pack will end up constantly losing their ability to fight back against the other players. The first skill a player tends to learn while playing SRB2 match is how to properly dodge shots, as anyone who doesn't quickly grows frustrated and quits playing. I personally think this is actually the biggest weakness of SRB2 match as a game, and it's hard to fix it because the issue is built into the core game mechanics of ring loss.
Why is this related to rail? Because rail requires an entirely different skill set from the rest of the weapons to avoid getting hit by. With every other weapon in the game, you can see the projectile flying at you and easily know that you got hit because you didn't get out of the way. Rail is different: to avoid getting hit by a rail shot you need to make it difficult to aim at you instead of trying to dodge projectiles. There are a lot of ways to do this, but the basic trick is to be as unpredictable as possible. Don't move in straight lines, constantly jump to change your vertical position, and vary your actions as much as possible. Yet, even if you do it well and are being a hard target, sometimes your opponent is just going to be a good shot and peg you, and then suddenly you lose all your stuff. This goes right back to my initial point about frustration. A player who has gotten good at dodging ordinary shots but hasn't mastered the ability to be a hard target will find themselves losing all their stuff to one weapon over and over again, and think it's overpowered and then go complain on the forums about it. While rail isn't the most powerful weapon in 2.0 by a long shot, it's by far the weapon we get the most complaints about, and I really just think that comes down to being frustrating for an intermediate player to lose to.
Now, there IS something we've done to try to rectify this in 2.1, but it actually has nothing to do with rail and has more to do with the original point about it being frustrating to lose all your stuff constantly: we've added a lot more shields. You get free shields in 2.1 in match while losing, and shields are even more common on both of the random monitor tables. The more shields are available in the game, the more time a losing player will be able to keep his stuff, attempt to fight back, and feel like they're at least interacting in the game instead of being the target of a shooting gallery. Rail is just a symptom of this underlying problem.
Let's start with the basics: losing at SRB2 match is frustrating. You're probably thinking "duh" right now, but it actually goes farther than that. SRB2 match's mechanics make losing more frustrating than it would be in many other competitive games. Because of the way taking a hit can cause you to drop all your stuff, the players at the bottom of the pack will end up constantly losing their ability to fight back against the other players. The first skill a player tends to learn while playing SRB2 match is how to properly dodge shots, as anyone who doesn't quickly grows frustrated and quits playing. I personally think this is actually the biggest weakness of SRB2 match as a game, and it's hard to fix it because the issue is built into the core game mechanics of ring loss.
Why is this related to rail? Because rail requires an entirely different skill set from the rest of the weapons to avoid getting hit by. With every other weapon in the game, you can see the projectile flying at you and easily know that you got hit because you didn't get out of the way. Rail is different: to avoid getting hit by a rail shot you need to make it difficult to aim at you instead of trying to dodge projectiles. There are a lot of ways to do this, but the basic trick is to be as unpredictable as possible. Don't move in straight lines, constantly jump to change your vertical position, and vary your actions as much as possible. Yet, even if you do it well and are being a hard target, sometimes your opponent is just going to be a good shot and peg you, and then suddenly you lose all your stuff. This goes right back to my initial point about frustration. A player who has gotten good at dodging ordinary shots but hasn't mastered the ability to be a hard target will find themselves losing all their stuff to one weapon over and over again, and think it's overpowered and then go complain on the forums about it. While rail isn't the most powerful weapon in 2.0 by a long shot, it's by far the weapon we get the most complaints about, and I really just think that comes down to being frustrating for an intermediate player to lose to.
Now, there IS something we've done to try to rectify this in 2.1, but it actually has nothing to do with rail and has more to do with the original point about it being frustrating to lose all your stuff constantly: we've added a lot more shields. You get free shields in 2.1 in match while losing, and shields are even more common on both of the random monitor tables. The more shields are available in the game, the more time a losing player will be able to keep his stuff, attempt to fight back, and feel like they're at least interacting in the game instead of being the target of a shooting gallery. Rail is just a symptom of this underlying problem.
Burning-Fox
Does not approve of rails.
You get free shields? Well I'll be damned.
Rails are really frustrating to get hit by. I mean just from looking at my avatar you can see the typical rail scenario (minus the weapon pannels flying everywhere and getting stolen by the thok mob). It's annoying as hell. Especially when you're trying to get some of your things back that you worked oh so hard for, but can't because RAIL RAIL RAIL. Every five seconds.
The only REAL way to dodge rails is by using Sonic. Knuckles maybe, but even then his ridiculous glide mouse spam technique isn't all that effective against a good shot. As cool as Sonic is to be the most powerful character, being practically forced to play as him to avoid rails and... play somewhat decent against other Sonic characters, is ridiculous. There are very few advantages of using Tails already in Match and the fact that strafe is getting removed just makes matters worse. You're practically, instantly screwed. Especially against a rail ring, what with Tails' amazing speed in his flight. @_@
While shields are a good idea, it hardly fixes the fact that you're getting hit and giving people points. And losing. It's not the best feeling in the world.
Don't even get me started on maps with pits... ¬¬
Rails are really frustrating to get hit by. I mean just from looking at my avatar you can see the typical rail scenario (minus the weapon pannels flying everywhere and getting stolen by the thok mob). It's annoying as hell. Especially when you're trying to get some of your things back that you worked oh so hard for, but can't because RAIL RAIL RAIL. Every five seconds.
The only REAL way to dodge rails is by using Sonic. Knuckles maybe, but even then his ridiculous glide mouse spam technique isn't all that effective against a good shot. As cool as Sonic is to be the most powerful character, being practically forced to play as him to avoid rails and... play somewhat decent against other Sonic characters, is ridiculous. There are very few advantages of using Tails already in Match and the fact that strafe is getting removed just makes matters worse. You're practically, instantly screwed. Especially against a rail ring, what with Tails' amazing speed in his flight. @_@
While shields are a good idea, it hardly fixes the fact that you're getting hit and giving people points. And losing. It's not the best feeling in the world.
Don't even get me started on maps with pits... ¬¬
Flaming-Nightmare
NEEEEEEEEEEERD
Rails are annoying little things. I exactly argee With burning.
They are cheap. With out rails. Srb2 pros will be useless. Unless they masters other weapons. I shouldn't ask to remove them that'll be harsh.
They are cheap. With out rails. Srb2 pros will be useless. Unless they masters other weapons. I shouldn't ask to remove them that'll be harsh.
Mystic, I don't think that's the entire problem. Every weapon ring besides rail has something that you can directly counter it with. If someone is tossing grenades all over the place, bomb can blow them up so you don't have to walk over a minefield. If someone is throwing scatter down a hallway, you can use bounce/auto to make your own makeshift wall to keep them from approaching you. If someone is harassing you with bomb rings, auto spam is a good way to get them to back off, which is probably why people don't complain so often about bomb despite it being as broken as it is. Bounce rings can be countered somewhat with scatter, but they also have the drawback of only being useful in a tightly closed area.
But the Rail ring currently has no other ring that you could use to try to counter it with. You're only options are to try to close the gap, rush down on them while being predictable, or run away. These options are things you can do for every ring though, and aren't specific to rail. Another problem I have with rail is how, unlike all the other rings, you don't hear it coming, which is ironic, considering all of the other rings move more than slow enough for you to get away when you hear them fire, but you can't see or hear rail when it's coming for you, and looking at a player's sprite isn't always the best indication of "he's shooting rail at me" either.
Prime_2 suggested a red line of fire for the Rail, which I think would be a good way to tell the player that something is coming. If you aren't planning on adding another ring to counter rail, then you should probably give more warning to the victim of it's presence.
21kHzBANK21kHz
Member
Pretty much what Steel said. The counter to the rail ring is the rail ring. There are also other ways of course, but the main counter to someone who likes using rail rings is to use a rail ring on them. And if you can't do that, use the rail's main weakness: walls. A grenade user who can't see you can hit you; a rail user cannot. Even if they know where you are if you jumped behind a wall or flew up to a roof, rail users cannot harm you. If someone is dedicated to using a rail on you you could easily hit them with the range of a bomb against the floor before the rail user even spots you. I think making it obvious when you're being targeted ruins the entire stealth aspect of the game (though many players do not use it, stealth is a weapon in this game). I personally use chasecam and may follow or deceive someone who isn't, and making it clear when I'm targeting them would make that entire mechanic useless. There are just too many ways to get around the rail ring for this implementation to be necessary. If you don't want someone sneaking up on you, the solution is simple: know where your opponent is, and this includes knowing whether or not they can rail you in your position. If you don't, you pay for it.
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Countering a weapon ring with another weapon ring applies to all weapon rings, running behind walls also applies to all weapon rings when trying to avoid them, it's just a basic strategy, not a hard counter.
Grenades make a very distinct sound that you can hear from a decent distance away, the victim has plenty of time to react to the situation because of it, and if they get hit, it's entirely their fault. On top of that, you can throw a bomb in a location you think may have grenades on the floor, forcing the player who used them to waste their ammo. Bomb is a counter for grenade rings, and gives the player more than just the basic options to when trying to turn the tables on their opponent.
Rail is silent, and unlike common FPS, doesn't show your position on a radar after you fire, so you are never forced to move from position so long as people cannot see or effectively locate you. And if you get hit from behind from rail, you won't even see the trail that you can use to try and find them.
My above statement also applies to this.
Knowing where someone is and being able to actively stop their strategy are two different things. Running is always an option, but there should be a bit more to it than just that.
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I did really like Prime's idea in #srb2fun about just adding a permanent trail to it whenever the user has it equipped, it gets rid of the complete unavoidable factor when the ring is first fired at you at least.
I'd like to note that I stated earlier that we are quite well aware of the problem that rail is the only long-range weapon. While it's not going to make it for 2.1, the main additional weapon planned is another long-range weapon to make it so you don't need rail to counter rail. You'll also notice that in maps where rail is exceptionally good, the rail panel is intentionally placed in a location where it's hard to monopolize it because otherwise it would be easy to abuse rail without repercussions. Nimbus Ruins is probably the easiest example of this.
This isn't really by design. The design of the weapons is instead that each weapon is situationally better in certain conditions. The easiest example of this is the bounce ring, where the level architecture makes it change from a slightly worse red ring to an amazing area denial weapon. While bounce is the most obvious example of a weapon that's situationally better, all the weapons are designed this way, from automatic which is awesome with a large amount of rings to scatter which is awesome when in point-blank range. The problem is that the weapon statistics aren't quite balanced, so grenades and explosion trump all, but this has also been fixed in 2.1.
Atlas
Hybrid
From what I have noticed, most of the people complaining about the rails are either tails users, have bad aim, or just struggling to get points.
Now I want to say that this rail debate is really useless, considering most of the "pros" I know actually know how to use other weapons, but rails are the best weapon to use (though personally I think bombs are the most overpowered).
Tails users mainly want rails to be removed so they could mash their flight and be less overpowered. Others just don't know how to use it and struggle learning how and just give up.
But what most people forget is that you have to be able to aim in order to rail/snipe.
Most players now these days know how to aim, even without the rails, and that just makes them as good as they are. Most players just dislike losing and look to the reason they lost, which is because someone on the other team, or another player was able to rail.
Maybe you should learn to aim to understand how difficult it is to actually be able to rail.
The only reason rail rings are such a big problem now is because you aren't timed with how long you have a weapon like in the older version. Since you could get 50 rails, that's 50 shots you have to hit a target. In older versions, 50 is 50 seconds of railing time, plus cool down.
Honestly, I think all this talk about certain aspects of a game being overpowered is useless considering it's just a game.
Now I want to say that this rail debate is really useless, considering most of the "pros" I know actually know how to use other weapons, but rails are the best weapon to use (though personally I think bombs are the most overpowered).
Tails users mainly want rails to be removed so they could mash their flight and be less overpowered. Others just don't know how to use it and struggle learning how and just give up.
But what most people forget is that you have to be able to aim in order to rail/snipe.
Most players now these days know how to aim, even without the rails, and that just makes them as good as they are. Most players just dislike losing and look to the reason they lost, which is because someone on the other team, or another player was able to rail.
Maybe you should learn to aim to understand how difficult it is to actually be able to rail.
The only reason rail rings are such a big problem now is because you aren't timed with how long you have a weapon like in the older version. Since you could get 50 rails, that's 50 shots you have to hit a target. In older versions, 50 is 50 seconds of railing time, plus cool down.
Honestly, I think all this talk about certain aspects of a game being overpowered is useless considering it's just a game.
This is slightly off-topic, but have you considered changing the points system so that opponents with no weapon rings only give off 25 points? The difficulty of farming points off of someone who has little to no ammo is disproportionate to the reward, and double the points for killing somebody isn't even necessary. In fact, as a mechanic I'm not sure if conventional damage deaths even need to exist in match.
This partially addresses what you're saying here, but I also just felt it would fix some risk/reward issues in large match games.
Your entire argument literally just boils down to 'lolskill, git-gud', which can be replied to by just this again.
This doesn't even make sense.
Atlas
Hybrid
What I'm trying to say is, I don't see why it matters considering
It's just
a game.
Quick edit: Yeah, sure my argument is basically saying to get good. I mean, if you are going to just roll around expecting to win without actually learning to aim, what's there to complain about?
It's just
a game.
Quick edit: Yeah, sure my argument is basically saying to get good. I mean, if you are going to just roll around expecting to win without actually learning to aim, what's there to complain about?
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Chaotic Chao
horns Horns HORNS
You're on a forum about said game, so saying "it's just a game" has absolutely no merit.
Anyway, I don't play match much, but when I do I use Tails (the only gametype I use him in, actually), and I'll admit - I'm not that good. At all. But I will say one thing - aiming really isn't all that hard unless you're trying to fly at the same time (or glide? I dunno) or unless you're aiming at Sonic who can just thok everywhere (Knuckles can glide briefly to evade too, but I find that doesn't work as well. But I don't know - as I said, I don't match much). So, I don't see why aiming with the rail would be any harder...at least not by much.
I don't mind the rail THAT much, honestly, but I will say this - getting hit and losing ALL of your rings (and, subsequently, your ammo) AND weapons AND emeralds (lol emeralds) is fucking irritating. Now, it's somewhat less annoying when you feel like it's your own fault because you can literally see every ring coming before you get hit unless you get shot from behind, and even THEN you can probably hear it and have time to react. However, the rail ring gives you absolutely NO warning - no red dot or red line like an ordinary sniper rifle in literally every other shooter ever. And of course you can't hear it coming because it's so damn fast. Therefore, getting hit with the rail is significantly more awful because you get no opportunity to dodge. Whether you get hit or not depends almost solely on whether the shooter can aim well or not. Sure, hiding behind stuff can help...sometimes. But once you get hit, your best bet is usually just to run or hide...or thok like mad if Sonic. Barely a fun or rewarding counter, no?
Look, I don't hate the rail ring as much as I sound like I do, but I'd really appreciate it if I could at least see it coming. Or, better yet, NOT lose EVERYTHING I'm carrying when hit. Because in SRB2 match, if you get hit even once, good luck countering.
Just because it's a game doesn't mean the game can't be improved. Well-balanced gameplay where every weapon is useful is better than a game where one weapon is overpowering and is always used. If nothing else it just provides more variety to the game, which is the whole point of having weapons to begin with. We could play a theoretical game where the only weapon is Armageddon, but that wouldn't be very fun, would it?
It's important for skill to play a significant part in the results of the game, but it's also important for players to not get locked out of relevance because of a lack of skill. Imagine two players playing two different shooting games where Player 1 is a little bit better than Player 2. In the first game, Player 1 wins 10-7, and in the other game, Player 1 wins 10-0. In both games, the skill gap is the same, but in the second game, the second player is basically completely unable to play because of the game mechanics. If I was the second player in this situation, I'd far rather play the first game over the second because in the first game I still get to have an impact on the game despite being worse than the other player.
For this reason, don't claim things like "it's just a game" or "skill" when talking about something as subjective as whether a gameplay mechanic is balanced or fun. A mechanic can be totally balanced, yet still cause the kind of blowout victories that cause the losing player to ragequit. Just because a player is bad doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to have fun playing.
It's important for skill to play a significant part in the results of the game, but it's also important for players to not get locked out of relevance because of a lack of skill. Imagine two players playing two different shooting games where Player 1 is a little bit better than Player 2. In the first game, Player 1 wins 10-7, and in the other game, Player 1 wins 10-0. In both games, the skill gap is the same, but in the second game, the second player is basically completely unable to play because of the game mechanics. If I was the second player in this situation, I'd far rather play the first game over the second because in the first game I still get to have an impact on the game despite being worse than the other player.
For this reason, don't claim things like "it's just a game" or "skill" when talking about something as subjective as whether a gameplay mechanic is balanced or fun. A mechanic can be totally balanced, yet still cause the kind of blowout victories that cause the losing player to ragequit. Just because a player is bad doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to have fun playing.
Yes, and the argument is a bad one because the people arguing DO, what the fuck kind of assumption is that we don't know how to play the game?
Atlas
Hybrid
I mean... if that's what you think lol
Either way, if you look pass the fact that most players are getting railed 90% of the time because said players don't know how to simply strafe side to side, or even once in a while try to not run in a straight line...
...I still think the bombs are the most op weapon.
"Oh yes there is no problem with the weapon, 90% of all players are just doing it wrong for the many years it's been in the game"
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