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Old 11-06-2008   #121
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Oh, great, powerful, benevolent *insert all other forms of sucking up* Jazz, you have hosted a dedicated server!

Game Boy Valley Zone, X_X/10

It didn't work out as well as I thought it would.

Treehouse Sanctuary Zone, 5/10
Average. It has enough vertical variation, but each height is too flat. Also, it's weird that if you get in the water current, you have to jump down to get up out.

Grassy Pier Zone, 2/10
Well, it was huge, and it was flat. The wind helped with vertical variation, but it was too extreme, and it seemed to pick me up at places I wasn't expecting. Also, Homing Rings didn't help it at all, either.

Submerged Sanctuary Zone, 7/10
Surprisingly, my favorite in the division. It succeeds where Hydro Plant Zone fails. People actually fight each other in the water rather than staying at the top. It was kind of hard to get out of the water, though, and maybe that was a good thing, because I think that contributed to people staying underwater. And Random Monitors in the water fail; I got a Fire Shield. =/

Dark Fort Zone, 6/10
Played a bit above average. However, that Homing Ring really should have been a fourth Automatic Ring, as I promptly managed to make a rather cheap shot at JEV3. I think that maybe this had a bit too much platforming.

----

Quicksand Forest Zone, Mario Kart DS/10
I thought that maybe a quicksand as an obstacle would be not too bad for Race, yet one part is far too punishing.

No Name Forest Zone, 6/10
Once you get the hang of it, it really plays kind of well. However, that last obstacle is rather annoying. Definitely better than Slumber Circuit Zone, though.

Warped Woods Zone, 7/10
The flaws of this map seem unearthed only under C lag. A couple of these jumps and hazards are a bit annoying under C lag, and that zig-zag final platforming section is just downright unfair under said lag. I actually had quite a bit of practice on this before a netgame, and I still ended up losing all three lives. Otherwise, it's quite solid. But for C lag's sake, you could lose maybe one or two of these hazards.
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Old 11-06-2008   #122
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Hang on, just for reference: Where exactly do the springs shoot you, onto the ground? Or into another river once more?
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Old 11-06-2008   #123
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They shoot you onto ground if you strafe in mid-air.
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Old 11-06-2008   #124
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Well I'm asking what happens if you don't move in mid-air at all.
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Old 11-06-2008   #125
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You must not have an SRB2-accessible computer with you. =/

Actually, those springs have the Deaf flag; therefore, they spring you whichever way you approached them. If you approach them from the center of the platform, you would be pushed into the river. If you approached them at an angle, you will be pushed onto the ground.
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Old 11-06-2008   #126
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Edited some of my CTF scores. Lowered a couple CTF maps to keep equal standards between them and raised Lift Bridge with respect to the implementation of alternate paths, which unfortunately did not add enough further depth to the map, but the tunnels were cool when you knew where they were even if it took five seconds to successfully enter one.
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Old 11-06-2008   #127
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Voting Post

Single Player:
Freezing Flare Zone, Act 2 by Simsmagic: 7/10
The old theam of Fire and Ice. Or is it the other way around?

Skyline Paradise Zone by fawfulfan: 4/10
As a Night's level, it was bad. Crushers and NiGHTS don't mix and that maze part was confusing.

Electric Dungeon Zone by Roy: 7/10
I like the path for knuckles.

Red Desert Zone by SonicMaster: 9/10 (Score changed)
Ah, another SM level with good custom contentent to go along with it.
Edit: as I dug into your wad to find out how to do that camera trick I discovered an extra music lump. I have no idea where this is used, but this lump got you an extra point.

Dimension Glaber Special Stage 2 by Glaber: N/A
It's my map. I made this map after rummaging through old special stages to use in SRB2 Halloween 2008. Judging by the reaction to the texture choice I can see now why STJR no longer uses the checkered pattern Textures for their special stages.


Frost Mountain Zone, Act 1 by HyperKnux: 7/10
Good level design, but the next time you submit a map that is not on slot 1 include what map number it is in the name like I do.

Water Ruins Zone by Donovan The Hedgehog: 3/10
No points were taking because of 2d mode, they were taken off due to hold right and jump and roll. Almost No obsiticals and the ones that were there were too easy. You might want to get some training with a few GS levels before attempting another 2D level, but don't release them. The GS levels you make should be for training purpouses only.

Snowpoint Land Zone, Act 1 by Superusuario: 3/10
Almost impossiable as Sonic and it's a worse Button hunt than CEZ2.

Geothermal Volcano Zone by verifiaman: 3/10
Dude, finish the level befor you submit it next time. This level had an unfinished/begginner's feel to it.
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Old 11-06-2008   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRB2WikiSonicMaster
Warped Woods Zone, 6/10
The flaws of this map seem unearthed only under C lag. A couple of these jumps and hazards are a bit annoying under C lag, and that zig-zag final platforming section is just downright unfair under said lag. I actually had quite a bit of practice on this before a netgame, and I still ended up losing all three lives. Otherwise, it's quite solid. But for C lag's sake, you could lose maybe one or two of these hazards.
Not to show off, but ever since I figured out the -clientport command line parameter existed (last month =P), I have been running multiple instances to simulate control lag for testing purposes. Running with a fluctuating GAMEMISS from 40-60% (200-250 approximate ping) and heavy framerate lag, I only got hurt two or three times in a full four lap run at about 40-45 seconds per lap. I make sure that my levels are at least "mostly playable" under heavy lag before submitting them now.

Should I test under even worse conditions to get a more accurate perception of map playability under lag? It seems that my current testing simulates a sub-standard-below-average laggy netgame pretty accurately already by my experience.
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Old 11-06-2008   #129
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You see, your map almost exclusively uses hazards as obstacles. Race Alley Zone, with a score of 8.86, did not use a single hazard. It had tons of obstacles, though.

Also, Glaber, let's not recommend Glaber Syndrome levels for level design references, ever. I would suggest that Donovan look at SRB1 Remake for level design and Palmtree Panic for visual design.

EDIT: Ack, I think you deserve a 7 instead. It was just too well-built to deserve a 6.
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Old 11-06-2008   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRB2WikiSonicMaster
Race Alley Zone, with a score of 8.86, did not use a single hazard. It had tons of obstacles, though.
Contest scores are not the most accurate meter to judge certain levels for the following reasons:

1. Inaccurate Votes: This could result from only one or two people voting, extreme bias, or the people voting not spending enough time on the level to score it fairly. (I played each of these maps in several netgames to establish an opinion... CTFs came out short so I re-edited most of them after playing more) This could also apply to the fact that just about everyone uses the score range differently.

2. Taste: Some types of levels are more fun than others, but sometimes this evaluation is solely due to personal taste. Some people loathe difficult maps with plenty of hazards, and some are easily bored by maps that don't mix things up. Some people enjoy linear levels more and some prefer to spend several replays just exploring the entire level. (even if it is disorienting)

3. Periodic Standards: Standards change overall, there may be many terrible maps that performed very well in contests just because they were judged average at the time, but now they aren't nearly as good.

And the fact that votes are based on opinion rather than professional evaluation ensures that you are going to get a popularity vote before a quality vote.

Personally, I didn't find Race Alley that interesting. My favorite circuit maps prior to this were always the themed maps from JJames. Additionally, hazards are as creditable a gimmick as the features in Race Alley, more so in circuit because they are more likely to be implemented properly without breaking the flow. The only concern is player backlash upon being killed.

Considering this statement with respect to the other race maps in this division, the quicksand in the first one was not a bad gimmick, but it was too punishing because of the paths which were no bigger than they needed to be, and they sucked the player down so sharply bringing him a halt several times before he can attempt to start platforming again. The NiGHTS level used its gametype for a gimmick, which has become very popular this year, but the obstacle placement make the NiGHTS gameplay less than decent.

To add to all that, I like maps with abundant hazards as long as they are never cheap... so I will admit slight bias toward hazardous levels. (be they SP or MP)

EDIT: By the way, I considered the tunnel through the tree, and the barrels themselves more prominent obstacles than the goo. If neither were present, then you only need be concerned by thokking out of it instead or re-orienting yourself or dodging them.
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Old 11-06-2008   #131
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If I can find another contest server, I'll try again with WWZ, desperately paying attention to what the ping feels like. I'll see if that helps my experience.

EDIT: I don't think framerate lag is the best idea to test maps under lag, Jazz. I tried one lap on Warped Woods in OpenGL as Sonic by myself. That, of course, literally turned the framerate to less than two frames per second on this computer. With only one try, I didn't get hurt once. I believe this is because my perception time in tics shot through the roof.
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Old 11-06-2008   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice
Hang on, just for reference: Where exactly do the springs shoot you, onto the ground? Or into another river once more?
What level are you talking about?
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Old 11-06-2008   #133
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His own level.
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Old 11-06-2008   #134
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Deaf tags? D'oh! I must have placed them after I added some deafed rings. I noticed that the springs shot me in a weird direction though I never really payed attention to it. The springs were originally meant to shoot you straight towards land...
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Old 11-06-2008   #135
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For you, Glaber.
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Old 11-07-2008   #136
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A little late. I just downloaded it from the wiki and applied it to SRB2 Christmas 2008's Frozen Battery Zone.

Thank you any way.
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Old 11-07-2008   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRB2WikiSonicMaster
EDIT: I don't think framerate lag is the best idea to test maps under lag, Jazz. I tried one lap on Warped Woods in OpenGL as Sonic by myself. That, of course, literally turned the framerate to less than two frames per second on this computer. With only one try, I didn't get hurt once. I believe this is because my perception time in tics shot through the roof.
Believe it or not, running enough multiple instances connected to the same server literally shoots up the control lag you feel. It isn't just frame rate lag, its more like a lot of both. Also, the fluctuating GAMEMISS makes it harder because you may compensate for less lag at one point than you do at another, just like in a real netgame.

I suppose I'll find a way to standardize this method of "fake lag" so I can use it more reliably in future testing. I did make map adjustments based on it, so it still serves its purpose anyhow. I appreciate the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEV3
3. Periodic Standards: Standards change overall, there may be many terrible maps that performed very well in contests just because they were judged average at the time, but now they aren't nearly as good.
This most especially is why you see older contests having higher averages than current contests. I honestly don't think the maps have gotten any worse, I simply think the rating scale is becoming more strict because of the wealth of high-quality content (Mystic Realm, etc) that exists nowadays. If anything, the maps nowadays on average are getting better. If you need examples, look at the Best of 2004 pack. Several of the match levels have Homing-Rail, which would have instantly earned the map zeroes in current contests.
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Old 11-07-2008   #138
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I've looked at the sector layouts of Best of 2005, it looks like it could be a bit better. But, yeah, JEV3 is completely right. Take 9.50-scoring Four Seasons (also part of Best of 2005): It's huge, flat, and has only one Automatic Ring in the entire stage.

Jazz, I wasn't clear. I suggest also trying your maps under realistically fluctuating control lag but with perfect framerate. That's how I got thrown off, personally.

EDIT: Or, it could just be that Warped Woods has outgrown SRB2's substandard netcode.
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Old 11-07-2008   #139
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Cut-away views are awesome. I'm planning to use them in my next project...
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Old 11-07-2008   #140
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Well, that should make for interesting effects. I'll have to check that one first. But let's say you wait for the contest to start, k?
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