So I'm curious about something regarding 2.2

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Yes, and I've stated before that Knuckles in Sonic 2 is essentially using S&K's rules, not Sonic 2's. S&K and both lock-ons allow every character to go super. Sonic 2 does not.

Not true. Tails cannot go super in Knuckles in Sonic 2. (this can be found via setting your character to Tails, despite it being for "Knuckles")

While the Advance games didn't give them to you outright, they treated them the same way. In Adventure and Advance, you can't go super in gameplay, and you only go super for the final boss.

We essentially are going for Sonic 2's design, where Sonic gets it but Tails doesn't. This is essentially the middle option between S3K where everyone's super so no one is and SA* where it's for the final boss only.

If Sonic Advance let you go Super Sonic in regular stages and not Knuckles, I would have been upset there as well, because Knuckles had a super form. It bothered me in Sonic Heroes when Knuckles was just Knuckles with a power shield. The thing is there. We know it exists. By not giving it to us it's kind of like taunting us. I could let Tails and Amy slide because Tails NEEDED the Hyper Emeralds and Amy has never gone super.
 
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Not true. Tails cannot go super in Knuckles in Sonic 2. (this can be found via setting your character to Tails, despite it being for "Knuckles")

Except that Tails couldn't anyway, because he needed fourteen emeralds in order to turn super instead of seven.

None of this is really relevant though; the decision to make characters super or not shouldn't be a matter of formality, it's whatever benefits the gameplay most that's important.
 
Except that Tails couldn't anyway, because he needed fourteen emeralds in order to turn super instead of seven.

None of this is really relevant though; the decision to make characters super or not shouldn't be a matter of formality, it's whatever benefits the gameplay most that's important.

Super Sonic in Sonic 2 didn't really "benefit"* the gameplay. Neither did it in S3&K. It was just a nice reward for getting the emeralds. All it did was make you slightly faster and invincible. It was nice to get in Sonic 2 and even in Sonic 3&K.

Also if we're going to talk about Sonic 2's rules, does the Taxman Sonic 2 HD count? It follows Sonic 2's rules but Knuckles can still go super.

* Should be noted that when use the word "benefit" here in strong quotations we are referring to the ""benefit of the game"" that this topic seems to be going into, which seems to think super tails and knuckles would ruin the experience because becoming invincible and slightly faster for putting in the work of collecting the chaos emeralds would apparently take away all of their unique traits and attributes because hey only Sonic was fast, right?
 
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Ugh, Just remove Super states from Multiplayer games and replace it by something else, I was thinking of Teleporting the players to Secret levels Available in Single-player unlockables for Co-op (Since it's not possible to select those from Multiplayer level Select) and for Match/Ctf they'd earn an Infinity ring that doesn't Cost Ammo but i'm not sure anyway .

You're right it'll just turn them into Sonics, Sonic should be the only one able to Become super (Only in Single-player)
 
Super Sonic in Sonic 2 didn't really "benefit" the gameplay. Neither did it in S3&K. It was just a nice reward for getting the emeralds. All it did was make you slightly faster and invincible. It was nice to get in Sonic 2 and even in Sonic 3&K.

You say it wasn't beneficial to gameplay and then immediately disprove your own argument by explaining how it was beneficial.
 
You say it wasn't beneficial to gameplay and then immediately disprove your own argument by explaining how it was beneficial.

I'm referring more in the sense of how we are trying to argue how super sonic needs to benefit from the overall gameplay. Like knuckles and tails have to be "unique" for it to benefit. Like Sonic being able to fly "benefits" the gameplay because sonic has had trouble. But knuckles and tails don't "benefit" from going super because it isn't "unique"

That's why I put quotation marks around the word benefit. Because it DOES benefit the player by making them invincible. Like how doesn't making the player invincible not make them benefit the player. But we're trying to discuss "benefits" as "overall experience" or "adds to the gameplay" in some weird sense that somehow by making them faster they are losing all of their unique traits (which isn't even remotely true). Sorry, I thought putting quotation marks around the word would have made it obvious but I guess it didn't so I suppose I'll edit it to make it more clear

Also if I somehow manage to get this topic locked, I probably would not be surprised
 
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Not true. Tails cannot go super in Knuckles in Sonic 2. (this can be found via setting your character to Tails, despite it being for "Knuckles")
Tails is not in S2K. The options menu isn't accessible. Even if he was, my point is that S&K and the lock-on modes are the only time in the classic games when non-Sonic characters can go super.

If Sonic Advance let you go Super Sonic in regular stages and not Knuckles, I would have been upset there as well, because Knuckles had a super form. It bothered me in Sonic Heroes when Knuckles was just Knuckles with a power shield. The thing is there. We know it exists. By not giving it to us it's kind of like taunting us. I could let Tails and Amy slide because Tails NEEDED the Hyper Emeralds and Amy has never gone super.
I think everyone seems to have a misunderstanding about what super is and why SEGA changed how they use super after S3K. I think the why is SO much more important here than the specifics of the implementation in S3K.

In Sonic 2, they introduced Super Sonic as an easter egg reward for collecting all the chaos emeralds. You'll notice that you can't prevent it from activating in Sonic 2, and it's very much just a hidden secret. If you play as Tails, you get nothing, and you're none the wiser.

In Sonic 3, however, they made super a significant part of the game and its plot, with a visible demonstration of it in the very opening cutscene and a final boss only for him. At some point in development, though, the decision was made to split S3K into two cartridges, which created a weird situation where they'd end up with 14 special stages. They made the decision to create the "super emerald" mechanic, and introduced the Hyper Sonic form, and also gave Sonic's rival in the game, Knuckles, with the same two forms. Also, to justify the previous games not letting Tails go super, they gave him Super Tails only with all 14 emeralds. This turned super forms into a major theme for the game. You'll notice that Sonic's rival, Knuckles, even ends up fighting a Super Mecha Sonic as his final boss, to drive the theming home even harder.

There's a problem to this scheme, though: the whole thing turned into a giant, overcomplicated mess. You'll notice that many people in this thread misuse the terms for S3K's system, too, including the message I'm responding to. It gets FAR worse the instant non-game Sonic shit comes in, like the shows or comics. The massive complexity that resulted from S3K is the main reason why SEGA keeps avoiding any super form from S3K anymore. It's just way too complicated and just results from a quirk of how S3K was released. I'd wager if they hadn't split S3K into two games, only Sonic and Knuckles would have had a super form.

Then why does Knuckles never go super again, you ask? Simple: he's no longer Sonic's rival in the game's overall plot. The only characters they allow to use Sonic's signature ability is the character he's paired up against. In S3K, that character is Knuckles. To use two other simple examples, Shadow got to go super in SA2, and Blaze got to go "super" in Sonic Rush. This is because those games also use the same basic paired character plot structure that Sonic and Knuckles had. After they stop being paired up with Sonic in the plot, they lose the ability for the rest of the franchise. This is why Knuckles doesn't get to go super in Sonic Advance or Sonic Heroes.

Maybe if SRB2 also had a paired character plot structure with a rival, we'd also want to give another character the ability to go super. Knuckles sure isn't his rival here, though, so the justification for why Knuckles can go super in S3K just doesn't apply to SRB2.
 
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I'm referring more in the sense of how we are trying to argue how super sonic needs to benefit from the overall gameplay. Like knuckles and tails have to be "unique" for it to benefit. Like Sonic being able to fly "benefits" the gameplay because sonic has had trouble. But knuckles and tails don't "benefit" from going super because it isn't "unique"

That's why I put quotation marks around the word benefit. Because it DOES benefit the player by making them invincible. Like how doesn't making the player invincible not make them benefit the player. But we're trying to discuss "benefits" as "overall experience" or "adds to the gameplay" in some weird sense that somehow by making them faster they are losing all of their unique traits (which isn't even remotely true). Sorry, I thought putting quotation marks around the word would have made it obvious but I guess it didn't so I suppose I'll edit it to make it more clear

Also if I somehow manage to get this topic locked, I probably would not be surprised

I didn't say anything about Super Knuckles/Tails not benefiting the gameplay. I'm just making the case that this should be our primary concern.

I still don't understand your argument for how Super Sonic wasn't beneficial to Sonic 2's/Sonic 3&K's gameplay. It's a reward for completing the good ending requirement, and it adds a new dynamic to gameplay.
 
Mystic Said :
Maybe if SRB2 also had a paired character plot structure with a rival, we'd also want to give another character the ability to go super. Knuckles sure isn't his rival here, though, so the justification for why Knuckles can go super in S3K just doesn't apply to SRB2.

Knuckles isn't Sonic's Rival in SRB2 ?, Why didn t he appear in the Intro by the way ?
The Storyline mentions "Floating Island" and "Forest Zone" too, wierd .
https://www.srb2.org/about/story/
 
Knuckles isn't Sonic's Rival in SRB2 ?, Why didn t he appear in the Intro by the way ?
The Storyline mentions "Floating Island" and "Forest Zone" too, wierd .
https://www.srb2.org/about/story/
First - Floating Island seems like Angel Island (aka that place where usually Knuckles is located)
Second - SRB2 Webpage is outdated and most of the info there is really outdated besides the news and current download.
Third - So if SRB2 Webpage is outdated that means the Forest Zone is some scrapped place or just some minor location (Like Green Flower City from SRB2 intro)
Fourth - Unused Shot :D
introd.png
 
This is because those games also use the same basic paired character plot structure that Sonic and Knuckles had. After they stop being paired up with Sonic in the plot, they lose the ability for the rest of the franchise.


Now when you say "paired up" are we assuming Sonic has to go super too? Or that they actually need to be paired up with Sonic to do so? Because Shadow has gone super on his own in Shadow the Hedgehog, and I guess if you consider Sonic being with Shadow as "paired up" I definitely would not consider that to be the case. While it's true that Shadow did pair up with Sonic in SA2 and Sonic '06, I'm pretty sure it's canonical that Shadow can go super without being paired up with Sonic, so to speak. Like he is pretty good with the chaos energy which is why he can go super. Knuckles was the guardian of the Master Emerald so him going Super wasn't really much of a surprise.

Also not sure if it's worth mentioning, but the Bioware Sonic chronicles game makes note of how Knuckles can go Super in the main games.

Also it feels like you're making S3K more complicated than it most certainly wasn't. The only quirk of a game being released was just the "Super Emeralds" which I'm sure were there only because of the fact of the multiple special stages. It was fun to go around a stage as Hyper Sonic or Hyper Knuckles or Super Tails.

Also not sure if you knew the reasoning, but the reason the games were split was really just because of the Holidays and the expensive cost of the cartridge had both games been together. Money was pretty much the reason for it, but I think we all benefited from it.

Tails is not in S2K. The options menu isn't accessible. Even if he was, my point is that S&K and the lock-on modes are the only time in the classic games when non-Sonic characters can go super.

hax bro. Also when was Knuckles not a Sonic character?
 
Mystic, by my research, Sonic 3 was always meant to be split in 2.
Sonic Retro Sonic 3 game development page said:
Though it was decided early on that the game may be needed to be split in half, what form this would take was still unknown, material for both games developed concurrently.
Just as had happened in the last game, it was decided that a new character should be added to the world of Sonic the Hedgehog, yet another internal competition held to decide what form they would take. Takashi Yuda would end up winning with his design, Knuckles the Echidna. Originally conceived as yet another friend for Sonic, it was decided later on that he would instead become Sonic's rival, becoming yet another obstacle for the hedgehog to overcome.
http://info.sonicretro.org/Game_Development:Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3

Seeing as how material was made for both halves at the same time, it's only logical to believe they always intended for Knuckles to be able to go super.
 
when was Knuckles not a Sonic character?
Mystic, by my research
Please get a fucking clue.

Quite frankly, I think a fair compromise for giving the emeralds some use as Tails and Knuckles could be to tweak how unlocking the super/hyper levels works, so that you only get to use whatever characters you've beaten the game with all emeralds with (or beaten the previous level with, in the case of... every level that isn't the first). That way you aren't playing the challenge stages with characters that you haven't gotten used to playing through the main game as yet, and it also gives a small reward for getting all emeralds with someone who isn't Sonic.
^^^^^^^^^^
only worthwhile post in this topic
 
that compromise won't eliminate the demand for Super Knuckles, or Super Tails despite him needing 14 emeralds. As long as you have the Chaos Emeralds, use any of the classics including sonic 2 genesis as a rule base, and have Super Sonic, People will want the others to be super too.
 
Considering this is the somethingth time the whole super argument popped up, I doubt that. (anyone actually have a count of how often this popped up)

In my opinion tying the Challenge stages to the emeralds and characters is an ok idea, it's just not going to quell the demand for super.
 
Quite frankly, I think a fair compromise for giving the emeralds some use as Tails and Knuckles could be to tweak how unlocking the super/hyper levels works, so that you only get to use whatever characters you've beaten the game with all emeralds with (or beaten the previous level with, in the case of... every level that isn't the first). That way you aren't playing the challenge stages with characters that you haven't gotten used to playing through the main game as yet, and it also gives a small reward for getting all emeralds with someone who isn't Sonic.

I think this kind of re-enforces the negative side of unlocking things. If I unlocked Azure Temple as Sonic but I want to try playing it as Tails, I now have to go through the trouble of earning every single emerald as Tails to play the same content I already unlocked for Sonic. I understand the concept of having people play through the main game first to understand the character better, but this sounds more like denying content for the sake of the game's longevity.
 
Yeah, I don't want to be forced to go through the exact same special stages three times to unlock the hyper levels with each character. Though I would have been okay with it if the old special stages were in place, because again, ability to fly/glide through them changes the experience.
 
Nothing personal but.. You guys seem to really like ignoring things and taking things that aren't working out of the game rather than improving the game and actually trying to figure out what would benefit the game, but that's really none of my business...
Red's idea sounds great as long as you still get super after completing both of those, I like extra challenge but it makes it feel like I didn't do a really dificult two levels for absolutely no reward except, again, another tick off the completion list.

Even if you made Black hole a Tails an Knuckles exclusive special stage you had to do in order to get the void emerald, which you then had to go to heaven to perform some weird ritual to somehow activate it, and then you chaos control into the depths of the ocean as your final trek to gain the lost ancient knowledge of the hedgehog tribe that is the ability to go... super saiyan, I would totally be down for that. In fact... I think someone should make that at least a mod to the vanilla campain because that sounds awesome.
 
Your passive aggressiveness is not appreciated. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that is all about making the game better, and there are no current plans to remove anything without either replacing it with something of equal or greater value, or leaving all the elements necessary to use it still in the game's code. I'm disappointed that my joke (see the ":P"?) about the internally argued, reasoned, and steadfast position of the team on this specific matter makes you think less of us. That said, the implication that what would benefit the game is to do exactly what you want is pretty silly.
To directly respond to Red's idea, I'm not reaaallllly sure about the idea of limiting secret levels to require reaching the achievement as each character you want to play them as. It could lead to a lot of repetition for a lack of relative gain. My gut feeling is that it would be grindy for the sake of grindy, aaaand I doubt that fits with the game's ethos.
 
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