Hidden Sanctuary Zone (scr_HiddenSanctuaryZone.wad)

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I never said visuals arn't important, but they SHOULDN'T be the main focus. They simply are there to enhance the experience, and make it memorable and special, not the main spotlight. No game got off visuals alone. Maybe. I dunno, given people these days, maybe a few did, but whatever.

What I got from this level was that it was just nothing special, with some fancy textures (The GFZ connection was just stated because thats what it felt like: GFZ, IE something that's basic, which is okay for the first level of a game, but I honestly expect a bit more from an addon). It didn't feel like there was any connection between the level and the visuals. They were like two separate worlds. I didn't feel like it was apart of it, I felt like it was just there.

A levels visuals should be based around it's design: it should flow from it and grow with it. It should play a role in the level's structure and challenges. It should feel- no, BE combined with the level design to feel like it was more than just some background pieces and platforms stapled together: It should feel like a level. While levels do need beautiful visuals, they also need brilliant design, combining the two in an experience you'll remember. Not just that "One level that played okay but was so boring to lok at" or "the level that looked good but played just meh" or anything of the sort. It should be the level that people WILL remember, and care about.

I shall say this: Levels should not be based around visuals.

I repeat: Levels should not be based around visuals.

One more time: Levels should not be based around visuals.

They should be made with the visuals being PART of the design.

DESIGN AND VISUALS MUST BECOME ONE: A LEVEL.
 
i never said levels should be based on visuals. i said they are one of the most important things.yes they should be merged as one. but do you know how hard that is? (being a mapper as you say you should know this) the closest one can ever get is fitting the textures with the design. By saying they need brilliant design is overdoing it dont you think. And i'll say this, Every level that a mapper designs, is Brilliant to the mapper.
 
D00D64 said:
I shall say this: Levels should not be based around visuals.

I repeat: Levels should not be based around visuals.

One more time: Levels should not be based around visuals.
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That statement is not true, regardless of how often you repeat it. The whole point of this level is to enjoy the sight while running through it, and it does that well. Of course, if the level itself was ugly, it would be boring. But as pretty much everyone else here said: The visuals make the level.

An ugly level with nice gameplay < a beautiful level with generic gameplay

You cannot say the level is bad just because you entirely missed its point. If you don't enjoy gorgeous sights without being kept on your toes for whole time, just play Eggrock Zone (which looks pretty too though).
Your whole approach on it is flawed because you want the visuals to be part of the platforming instead of the platforming part of the visuals. The looks are the main context of a level, the thing that makes it flow, not the gameplay.

D00D64 said:
While levels do need beautiful visuals, they also need brilliant design, combining the two in an experience you'll remember.
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This one DOES have brilliant level design. It's in the flow, the layout, the way the visuals are incorporated into the level. Here the spotlight IS on the visuals and the platforming plays a supporting role. THAT is its gimmick. You're not meant to look at the challenges the level maker provided but instead look at the level itself, its surrounding.

Probably you think this way because you only know v2.0, which is full of gimmicks AND great visuals (which does make them better than this level), but I have a feeling that the gameplay takes the focus away from the visuals. If someone plays SRB2 without prior knowledge, he will notice the gameplay, which is fun, but he won't notice how beautiful all of this looks (save for the incomplete CEZ). That could be reason why you are unable to enjoy the level without having something else to do.

How utterly horrible my post is, but I hope it helps anyway.

EDIT: And to Tidbit, who ninja'd me. A level should be based on visuals. You should make sure all of it looks good before you start adding gameplay into it. It's pretty much the polar opposite of D00D64's opinion, but I don't think visuals should be incorporated into the gimmicks.
 
If one really wanted great visuals to look at rather than play the game, then they wouldn't be playing SRB2.
 
SpiritCrusher said:
The visuals make the level.
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[spoiler:de31b65bf3]
lair-box-art-t1.jpg
[/spoiler:de31b65bf3]

SpiritCrusher said:
An ugly level with nice gameplay < a beautiful level with generic gameplay
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"Yeah, who CARES about actually playing the level and having fun with it? LETS JUST FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL IT WITH PRETTY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE MAGICALLY DELICIOUS <3!"

SpiritCrusher said:
You cannot say the level is bad just because you entirely missed its point. If you don't enjoy gorgeous sights without being kept on your toes for whole time, just play Eggrock Zone (which looks pretty too though).
Your whole approach on it is flawed because you want the visuals to be part of the platforming instead of the platforming part of the visuals. The looks are the main context of a level, the thing that makes it flow, not the gameplay.
Click to expand...

I play games to PLAY GAMES, not just look. That is MY approach. I never felt visuals should EVER be the main focus of an area, and that ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME was more important.

SpiritCrusher said:
D00D64 said:
While levels do need beautiful visuals, they also need brilliant design, combining the two in an experience you'll remember.
Click to expand...
This one DOES have brilliant level design. It's in the flow, the layout, the way the visuals are incorporated into the level. Here the spotlight IS on the visuals and the platforming plays a supporting role. THAT is its gimmick. You're not meant to look at the challenges the level maker provided but instead look at the level itself, its surrounding.
Click to expand...

I never said it needed to be a SUPER HARDCORE HYPER LEVEL CHALLENGE, just not FLAT and BLAND. I am just not gripped by this setting because it does not feel one with the level design. It feels detached and very separate. I've learned never to judges a book by it's cover, so I can't judge a level SOLELY on the visuals propped in the back alone.

SpiritCrusher said:
Probably you think this way because you only know v2.0, which is full of gimmicks AND great visuals (which does make them better than this level), but I have a feeling that the gameplay takes the focus away from the visuals. If someone plays SRB2 without prior knowledge, he will notice the gameplay, which is fun, but he won't notice how beautiful all of this looks (save for the incomplete CEZ). That could be reason why you are unable to enjoy the level without having something else to do.
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Misc Zone.

I loved Arch's Misc Zone.
It had barely any gimmicks to speak of, was very easy, and the visuals were just randomly slapped together for no reason (It was Arch's first level, so I can see why: Probably just wanted to use everything or just make a "whatever" type of level or something), but I LOVED that level, and replay it often. It was proof you didn't need gimmicks OR fantastic visuals to make a good level. It was all in the design. It was simple yet elegant.

Perhaps I just can't see the "art" of Hidden Sanctuary, or something about it I'm just not gripping on, but I just love a good ol' fashioned level: no real gimmicks or visuals are needed sometimes, just gameplay.

After all, if Super Mario Bros. can be a great game with very little gimmicks and visuals and STILL be good just for it's gameplay and design, why can't some levels be the same?

SpiritCrusher said:
How utterly horrible my post is, but I hope it helps anyway.
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No, it's a fine opinion, and I respect you for it. I certainly don't agree with anything you said, but I respect that opinion, and parry with my own.
 
D00D64 said:
"Yeah, who CARES about actually playing the level and having fun with it?
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Once I had received a low score because Mill Citadel Zone Act 1 didn't have some much aesthetics. Nah! Who cares... I just want fun and have the pleasure on creating maps that work fine as maps.

D00D64 said:
LETS JUST FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL IT WITH PRETTY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE MAGICALLY DELICIOUS <3!"
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*wink*

D00D64 said:
Misc [Realm] Zone.

(...)(It was Arch's first level, so I can see why: Probably just wanted to use everything or just make a "whatever" type of level or something)
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I was learning SRB2DB. First, I had created a plain square map following the tutorial. Later I created a new map to train a bit more and try every effect - water, fire, sand, falling FOFs... that was the moment Miscellaneous Realm Zone appeared.

@ICE:

Ice! Your... your... your lucky. Your topic has got 27 replies. Mine just 7. You'll be sorry! My revenge will be cruel.

*insert an evil laugh here*
 
im not goin to argue any more because i know its pointless.but im going to say this; you need to learn to try and give helpful critism and not push you point so hard. you posted it, and it was read. but compleatly blasting a good mapper, thats not right.
 
Guys, there is WAY too much tl;dr in this thread. You guys can talk about whether visuals or gameplay are more important in the Colosseum, this thread is for discussing these two maps.

Personally I think they're a tad simple but high quality in what's here. My main objective are the excessive use of teleports in dark areas in act 1. It feels really cheap, especially with how small the level is, to rely on such tricks in the map. I feel bad when it's done in ERZ2, never mind used constantly on this map. I'd suggest removing them and setting up the stage so teleports aren't used when playing through the level, perhaps adding some territory to fill the holes.

Other than that main gripe, this feels like it would do well as a first zone in a mod.
 
About the enemies, the first map was made when I didn't know jack about soccing or custom enemy design (which I still kinda don't), and the second act was for a contest, so there couldn't be any custom content. I'll be happy to make some sprites for new enemies if I could be helped with the behavioral aspect.
 
Ice said:
About the enemies, the first map was made when I didn't know jack about soccing or custom enemy design (which I still kinda don't), and the second act was for a contest, so there couldn't be any custom content. I'll be happy to make some sprites for new enemies if I could be helped with the behavioral aspect.
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Of course there could. It's allowed for single player.
 
Oh yeah huh. I forgot about that. I'm still somewhat clueless when it comes to soccing though.
 
I still think these two levels are a lot of fun, but I think something can be improved on. Now that 2.0 has new enemies, it just seems really boring to have Crawlas everywhere. I think you can put a few of the new enemies here and there.

Also,
srb20000-26.png

The floor inside this trunk damages you. Which I don't think is supposed to happen.
 
HSZ (yes, it's both Act 1 and 2): 6,5/10: Average levels with very generic gameplay. The graphics are beautiful but that's the only thing you see great in here.
 
Heh, oops. I'm guessing that's in act 2. I'll get to fixing that, and that tree problem that jellybones pointed out.
 
goog wad but how u complete the level????

---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

if someone now do a video and the link of the video
ok??

 
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A bit late to the party, but this is a spectacular level and certainly left me wanting more. The only gripes I have with it is the sometimes oddball texturing, and the use of silent teleports in lieu of an actual room to traverse.

Great work.
 
Back when I was a young and less mature Ice I thought teleports were pretty neat. I thought it would give a forest a warping, mystical, not-bound-to-spacial-logic type of feel. It didn't seem to work out that way.
The problem I see however, is that I don't know how to arrange the level so it can be traveled through without teleporting without messing up the feel of the parts I already have. And honestly, I'm lazy and sick of working with this theme.
 
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