OpenGL renderer overhaul progress

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Comparing the way software does colourmapping to the way current OpenGL does it is a completely pointless and silly thing to do, considering OpenGL does currently do it completely wrong. If it was doing it correctly it would give very similar results without the limitation of the palette.
No it wouldn't. That's the exact reason I used the greyscale colormap example; a standard tint wouldn't have the same effect. You'd just get washed-out grey mush.

Why couldn't you *add* MD2 models to software?
Do you want the game to run even worse than it already does? MD2s being rendered by the CPU would laaaaaaaaaag.

If this *is* implemented in SRB2, someone could just make their own fork without it.
And that's cool. As we've said before, the game is open source, and the shaders will be customizable even without an EXE mod. Anyone who wants it is free to write a true color shader and put it in Releases so that the others who want it can get it, like how graphics mods work in any other community.

However, the officially supported option that we will give to everyone who installs the game by default is going to be the option that matches our intended visual style, which is a limited palette and aesthetic designed to mimic early 90s platformers. This limitation is an aesthetic choice, and we're not going to supply another option off the bat that conflicts with that. You'll be able to add it if you want it, though; the vanilla game will have facilities to allow that, or any other setup you might want. Wanna write a shader that renders the game entirely in textual selections from 50 Shades of Gray? As much as I detest your choice in literature, you'll be able to do that. And like it or not, true color, being a conflict with our intended visual, is a mod in a similar vein to that.





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Why doesn't Mega Man 9 have true-color support?
 
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I've said it a few times before on IRC, but I'm not sure whether it's worth making it a toggleable option to make OpenGL truecolor or not-truecolor. Certain maps using custom palette resources or colormapping otherwise are going to be sub-par visually (as shown by screenshots already earlier in this thread) for some factions of the community who prefer to see in one way rather than the other. And same could happen the other way! That, and we should be going in one direction visually, not TWO directions at the same time for sanity's sake. I'm not sure how easily two such systems can be maintained at once, feel free to prove me wrong if I am?

...dare I say it, it would be almost as bad as the whole analog control vs non-analog control mess, where one option clearly trumphs the other in many aspects yet many use the worse option regardless. Maybe that's a bad example, but that's how it feels to me.
 
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If shaders can be done through wads like I heard yesterday from furyhunter, then the discussion should be over with already. True color fans can do it apparently.
 
If shaders can be done through wads like I heard yesterday from furyhunter, then the discussion should be over with already. True color fans can do it apparently.

Even if new shaders can be done through wads, which sounds great, I don't see it being a good reason to remove a feature OpenGL already has, and some people definitely prefer the look of.
 
Speaking as the voice of the silent community who doesn't really know what you guys are talking about and so can't put forth an intelligent opinion:

Thanks for all this work you all are putting into the game, guys! You'll figure out all the controversial details at some point, but in the meantime having better performance and fewer graphical glitches is a great thing! It always amazes me that this game is still being actively developed and improved 17(!) years later, so thanks everyone.
 
Even though I disagree with this, I'll accept it, but I'm wondering how OpenGL will handle these:
  • MD2s
  • Texture filtering
  • Sprites appearing flat when looked at from a vertical angle
 
If shaders can be done through wads like I heard yesterday from furyhunter, then the discussion should be over with already. True color fans can do it apparently.
No, the discussion would NOT be over with if we were assured there is 100% chance shaders can be done through Wads. (Which we're not, we've just been told there are PLANS for that.)
The discussion would however (hopefully) be over with if we were assured shaders will be implemented and not count as "modifying the game" (which has not been commented on by anyone but me yet, as far as I know). In this sense "modifying" meaning "game has been modified, secrets [/other data] can not be unlocked [/saved]".
 
Speaking as the voice of the silent community who doesn't really know what you guys are talking about and so can't put forth an intelligent opinion:

Thanks for all this work you all are putting into the game, guys! You'll figure out all the controversial details at some point, but in the meantime having better performance and fewer graphical glitches is a great thing! It always amazes me that this game is still being actively developed and improved 17(!) years later, so thanks everyone.

the only response I like in this entire topic

think I'll just take a break from you guys for a while again
 
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Why doesn't Mega Man 9 have true-color support?

I'm just going to single this out as a really great example. Mega Man 9 doesn't just limit the colours to a palette, it also emulates sprite flickering to get an authentic Mega Man NES feel. On the NES, too many sprites onscreen would cause sections of sprites to not be drawn every other frame (you can see this in Sonic games too if you use debug and place a bajillion rings!). Why did Mega Man 9 go so far as to replicate this? To get the feel absolutely perfect, and to put forth exactly the image they were trying to project.
 
No, the discussion would NOT be over with if we were assured there is 100% chance shaders can be done through Wads. (Which we're not, we've just been told there are PLANS for that.)
The discussion would however (hopefully) be over with if we were assured shaders will be implemented and not count as "modifying the game" (which has not been commented on by anyone but me yet, as far as I know). In this sense "modifying" meaning "game has been modified, secrets [/other data] can not be unlocked [/saved]".

I'm not obligated to give you anything as far as I'm concerned, especially not your own personal confirmation message that you'll get your moddable shaders.
 
The discussion would however (hopefully) be over with if we were assured shaders will be implemented and not count as "modifying the game"
Can't wait for the shader mod that everyone uses in multiplayer because it makes players all hot pink and easy to see no matter where they are!
 
犬夜叉;767070 said:
Can't wait for the shader mod that everyone uses in multiplayer because it makes players all hot pink and easy to see no matter where they are!
To be fair, that's what SV_Pure is usually for.

That said, there is something fundamentally wrong with the thought process that ended in people making strongarm demands in this thread. It's not even that it's dick move (which it is), it doesn't even make sense to convince anyone of anything considering no leverage exists what-so-ever.
 
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To me, it seems SRB2 is coded by a bunch of lazy developers who can't even agree with each other, and aren't particularly good at coding.
This might come as a great shock to everyone, but we're not the Borg. Individual developers have their own opinions and feelings, and our developer channels often have very heated discussions about the game and what we should be doing. The only problem here is how those opinions were presented, being far more hostile than they should have been. Disagreements are a natural part of any group project.

This is ridiculous, and I really wonder how you think this game has magically kept itself alive over the years, because clearly the community that plays it is no important factor, seeing how much merit and attention you're giving it here. Mystic's "for the game" in particular makes it sound like the game is being developed for itself rather than the community.
The community is larger than the forums. For every person invested enough to have a forum account and care enough about the topic to post in a thread, there are tens or hundreds of silent users who don't say a thing. The people who provide direct feedback via the forums are a small, vocal minority of the people who are actually playing this game. It's important to keep that in mind and remember that our goal is to find out what the silent majority wants. I personally collect information about people's opinions from as wide a group as possible, including not just the forums, but checking opinions elsewhere on the internet and doing testing on players that haven't played the game before.

That doesn't mean that the feedback we receive here on the forums is ignored. It means that we treat it with a grain of salt and know that just because some people are louder and angrier about things than others, they don't represent the entire audience.
 
I guess I'll stop being silent then, and chime in and say, really. Just leave truecolor in as an option. If you remove it, OpenGL will lose one of its reasons lots of people use it, as well as make MD2 textures look like crap, effectively ruining 2 important parts of OpenGL people use.
 
While I will admit I was initially shocked, everything I've seen from furyhunter so far has been well-implemented and knowledgeable and I've learned to trust his judgement and programming expertise. Good things come from here. Keep your chin up, furyhunter!
 
I will remind you that there's a major reason we don't use a blue colormap over grass for exactly this reason. The water in GFZ is much clearer than the colormap in that shot as well, to prevent the weird blue line you see on the edge of the squares in GFZROCK. The palette is a tool we use for visual consistency, but we have to be sure to use it well or things look bad. Just like anything else, there are both positives and negatives to using a palette. Having to choose your colors more carefully is a negative.
A major reason that'd be completely moot if we weren't handicapping ourselves to stick with a single 256-color palette.

I mean, I'd honestly hoped that we'd be able to introduce, say, optionally using PNG for graphics like textures and sprites, in addition to the internal graphic format; Software would've just opted for the closest palette entry for a given pixel, while hardware could render the texture as-is. Any hope for that gets shot down when we're arbitrarily deciding that we have to stick to the palette at all costs and thus produce abnormalities like the one you're citing. (I mean, there's paletted PNG, technically, but my intention was for there to be a quick format for truecolor textures.)

No it wouldn't. That's the exact reason I used the greyscale colormap example; a standard tint wouldn't have the same effect. You'd just get washed-out grey mush.
You might've missed the part where he admitted OpenGL's colormaps were broken. If they weren't broken, you wouldn't get washed-out grey mush, you'd get an end result similar to the greyscale example you'd posted - except instead of limiting it to 32 shades of gray, it could use the entire 256, and preserve subtle details.

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Why doesn't Mega Man 9 have true-color support?
Mega Man 9 was designed from the ground-up to look like an NES game. SRB2's only ambition at inception was just to be a 3D Sonic game, which only adhered to Doom's limitations because there was nothing better when development started in 1999 (Quake wasn't yet open-sourced), and only further stuck with it because (to my understanding) nobody knew how to fix OpenGL's colormaps to produce similar results in true color.

This insistence that the palette limitations were the intent all along is, frankly, a phenomenon new to this sudden push for a paletted hardware mode. I have never seen any attempts to justify it before now.

This might come as a great shock to everyone, but we're not the Borg. Individual developers have their own opinions and feelings, and our developer channels often have very heated discussions about the game and what we should be doing. The only problem here is how those opinions were presented, being far more hostile than they should have been. Disagreements are a natural part of any group project.
I'd argue this argument is no more heated nor less civil than any argument we've had in #'dev. We've always been at each others' throats in there - it's just typically far less public than this.

One more thing: if custom shaders were allowed, how exactly would they work? Like music.dta, where your game isn't marked as modified when you modify the file containing it? If not, anyone using a truecolor render won't be able to play with anyone using this paletted render.
 
Let me just jump in here, Shadow Hog mentioned that the game is/was intended to be a 3D Sonic game and that's it. Actually, I thought it was supposed to follow the formula of the classics? Anyways, this wouldn't include palettes as a result anyway, but personally, I favour OpenGL because shadows are projected over sprites properly, and in goop my screen doesn't lose a lot of detail on textures, even though it feels more like I'm in goop in software than opengl.
Software may make the goop look thicker, as it's supposed to be, but it kinda hurts my eyes in a way to have only a few colours and they all blend in a bit. I don't know how much sense I'm making here, but can't you colourmap the textures with hardware rendering rather than tinting/adding an overlay of colour? Shaders could work more efficiently at this. After all, this isn't supposed to be Sonic 1 in 3D, SRB2 is it's own game, just to follow the classic formula - not every single system in exact detail.

Also, in software there's bugs with the colour teal, probably because it's the transparency colour or something...
 
This insistence that the palette limitations were the intent all along is, frankly, a phenomenon new to this sudden push for a paletted hardware mode. I have never seen any attempts to justify it before now.
It was not the intent all along. It became the intent around the time we changed the palette for 2.0 during development and dropped OpenGL completely for software, which from a visual design perspective we continue to do.

I'd argue this argument is no more heated nor less civil than any argument we've had in #'dev. We've always been at each others' throats in there - it's just typically far less public than this.
I'd argue that when things get heated to the point where hyperbole and angry posts are being made, things have gone too far and we all need to take a step back and calm down. This is true here on the forums, in #srb2dev, and wherever angry arguments are being made. Just because we fail sometimes privately as well doesn't make failing any less of a problem. =P
 
April 1st Grade A shit posting right here, I'll tell ya what.

Okay, you got me - but it would be possible. For the record, that whole post was more or less a joke.


Back on topic, I would like to see this implemented in SRB2. I think it would give the game a more consistent feel. And as I said before, someone could always just fork it if they don't like it.

Keep up the great work guys! Even if it is a bit slow ;)
 
Okay, you got me - but it would be possible. For the record, that whole post was more or less a joke.


Back on topic, I would like to see this implemented in SRB2. I think it would give the game a more consistent feel. And as I said before, someone could always just fork it if they don't like it.

Keep up the great work guys! Even if it is a bit slow ;)

You're a good jokester I'll give you that, but your timing may have been a bit awful for one don't you think... :V
They didn't take too kindly on IRC that's for sure~
 
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