Thoughts on SRB2

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a441

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Hey all, a few people here might remember that I was a coder, tester, and avid custom level maker for SRB2 years back, but more-or-less quit in 2005. At the time, I was kind of burnt out on the whole thing and felt that the game would never get done. Now that I've finally played the current version with all the "new" single player levels introduced in 2009, I thought I'd share some feelings on it.

Overall, I'm really impressed at the scope of it with all the new levels, enemies, textures and game elements. The single player sequence was, on the whole, a heck of a lot of fun to play. I was clearly wrong to have written off SRB2's future.

Some elements of the level design, however, detract from the experience for me, and seem to crop up again and again:

  • The annoyance of missing a jump is too great. Often the player re-enters an area seen previously but from a higher altitude. Veering off the edge of a platform, or missing a single jump out of many, forces repeating a significant part of the level to climb back up. This isn't fun.

    Worse, missing some jumps sends the player to an empty area, especially in Deep Sea Zone, where many deep pools of water contain nothing but sparse scenery, one or two enemies, and a lone spring or zoom tube the player has to hunt for in order to 'try again.' One example: in DSZ2, after the water currents, where you jump a sequence of floating platforms while the water level rises. Or what purpose does this serve from DSZ1?

    In the classic games (e.g. Sonic 3 & Knuckles), sometimes falling off a platform makes you go back, but not as often. More commonly one of three things happens:
    1. You rejoin an alternate, lower path through the level. This is my favorite, because it's seamless and keeps the game's momentum. Jumping correctly might lead to a path that is shorter, more fun or has more bonuses, but in this case it isn't required.
    2. Nothing really. Perhaps you fall into a shallow pit that you can jump right out of, or a spring is close by. If there's spikes, you lose your rings but get right back up.
    3. You die. Where a higher level of difficulty is intended, some of these falls should probably lead to death pits, including the DSZ2 example. Let 'em off easy or kill 'em, but don't just annoy them.
  • Levels can be confusing, even maze-like. What seems like the path ahead can lead backwards to an earlier part of the level. This happens often in Deep Sea, Arid Canyon, and Castle Eggman, and a little in Egg Rock.

    Let's not forget that Sonic is linear, start-to-finish. In the classic games this is easy to keep track of since you ultimately run from left to right. Temporary, right-to-left reversals tend to be pretty obvious: there are only two choices, after all.

    In 3D, it's more complicated, but the player can rely on a common-sense notion: When there is a branch, to continue progressing through the level, you go forward, or turn as slightly as possible. If one path requires a much sharper turn than the others, it's likely not the intended way to go. And if two paths require an equal turn (say, 90 degrees left or 90 degrees right), they're both equally valid. Right?

    Sadly, this principle is not always adhered to in SRB2's level design, leading to frustration. Other cues that can help clarify are sometimes missing. One good example is where the first two split paths converge in Arid Canyon, where it's obvious to head for the stack of conveyors... doing otherwise would require a full, 180 degree U-turn. The rope fence particularly helps, as it discourages jumping directly from one side to the other and going the wrong way.

    But consider a not-so-great example from ACZ. After the cliffs with oil slicks and an attraction shield, you go up a red spring, through a hallway and down a stair-slope. At the bottom of this stair-slope is a confusing area (screenshot). There's a platform straight ahead, which suggests going straight. But the platform is not reachable, and that direction only leads backwards. There's also a platform slightly on the right, but it's isolated and contains only some rings, no way to proceed. The correct path is a 90 degree left turn, very counterintuitive on a first run through the level. It seems like putting a rope fence here would really help.

    Several other areas of ACZ confused me at first, though it's hard to remember where now that I've replayed it so many times.

    In a few places, the way to proceed through the level is bizarre and hidden:
    • In CEZ1, a sequence of wooden platforms leads to... a closed gate. To proceed, you have to deliberately fall off the platforms into a lake, and find currents leading to an underwater tunnel.
    • Most of the windows in ERZ2 are only for scenery. But at one point, you're going through a hallway and you suddenly have to make a 90 degree left turn, exit through a small window, and jump up some platforms. It seems illogical and anyone not used to this transition is going to go straight ahead, hitting a dead end.
    • Later in ERZ2, there's a mostly empty room where you jump into a glass tube on the wall which takes you briefly outside, then back in at another end. Then you go into a tiny, claustrophobic passageway, hidden behind some crates (which rarely fails to get the camera stuck). This has never made any sense to me.

    These weird passages would make sense for hiding emerald tokens, invincibility monitors or the like. As a regular part of the level, they just kill the momentum. Sure, finding where to go is an added challenge, in a sense - but mazes are about getting people lost; Sonic is about fast action. On the classic games, you don't get lost like this.
  • Some stages feel too much like obstacle courses. I'm especially thinking of Egg Rock, which I'm surprised got designed the way it is under Mystic's leadership, because it violates a principle of game design that he himself articulated to me once. That is: don't max out the difficulty constantly, because it isn't fun. You want to have parts of a level that are hard, and parts of a level that are relatively easy, offering relief.

    As I recall, Mystic's analogy (maybe borrowed from an article) went like this: consider a horror movie that consists of people screaming and being chased by zombies, nonstop, for two hours. That would be a crappy movie. After about five minutes, the adrenaline fades and you just get bored. But if you have a few, well-placed zombie chase scenes, and the rest of the movie is people walking through dark corridors, scared spitless about whether they're really safe or not and where the next zombie is going to show up, then you've got a good movie. Well, ERZ2 is about four hours of constant zombie chases.

    Admittedly, Egg Rock is the last zone, so if it's ever appropriate to stack up so many death traps in a row, it's here. I'm not even quibbling with the level of difficulty per se, though it's plainly beyond anything in the classic games. It's the way the difficulty is presented, so unrelentingly. Compare Wing Fortress, or Death Egg act 2 from Sonic & Knuckles. Between one trap and the next, you still get plenty of running, jumping, and straight-up platformer action - the joy of movement that makes Sonic so fun to begin with. It isn't out of one room-o'-doom and into the next, constantly. At no point in either act of Egg Rock can I really let my guard down, even for a moment, at best there is a trap that's slightly less deadly than the other traps, and on top of that, act 2 is absurdly long.

    But there's another way the levels feel like obstacle courses that's more subtle, and also applies to some of the earlier zones, like Deep Sea and Castle Eggman. Instead of the zones feeling continuous, I'm very conscious of moving from one "room" to the next, each room with a specific focus: In this room you jump from platform to platform. In that room you go around riding up the moving platforms. And so on. The classic games were sometimes like this, but you usually breeze on through and don't notice it; you don't have to stay in one room for like 20-30 seconds or more, the way you do in, say, the first big underwater area in DSZ1.

    Part of this obstacle course feel may just be, well, an over-reliance on obstacles. DSZ2 and ERZ2 feel like a designer's playground for testing game ideas. Some of the gimmicks are quite fun, most are at least pretty good, but they're too much and they start to slow things down, crowding out the basic gameplay. (And the DSZ2 room full of bust-up blocks just sucks.) More thought should be given to overall flow and keeping up the momentum. It could also help to minimize right angles and add more heterogeneity (varying floor heights, textures, types of hazards) within areas that feel too much like discrete rooms. Mystic Realm was generally very good in this respect.
  • There are some small, claustrophobic passageways that tend to constrain movement and get the camera stuck. A couple of old examples are the path to the emerald token in GFZ1, and the "secret" area encased in glass at the beginning of THZ2 - way too tiny. Now there's also a couple hallways in ERZ2 that you have to go through that get the camera stuck: the one behind the crates, and the one after the conveyors. All of these would be better off not so narrow; yeah, even the "secret" ones, cuz they're still part of the game. This ain't Doom, it's Sonic!
Criticism notwithstanding, I commend everyone who's worked on this, the new zones, enemies, textures and so on. Arid Canyon in particular is awesome. Its visuals, music, and (in most parts) level design are all superb and create a fresh-feeling zone that's the most fun I've ever had playing SRB2. Red Volcano is great too and Egg Rock has beautiful visuals and design even if I take issue with the pacing. You guys did a great job with this stuff, just consider maybe making tweaks and edits to the levels in some places.
 
First of all, hi. I wasn't in this community when you were, but I know who you are. Thanks for the insights, you really had a few observations that many of us never even thought of because we've been playing these levels for too long. I'd like to address a few points of yours:

The annoyance of missing a jump is too great. Often the player re-enters an area seen previously but from a higher altitude. Veering off the edge of a platform, or missing a single jump out of many, forces repeating a significant part of the level to climb back up. This isn't fun.
It's hard to avoid this without sacrificing vertical variation or enclosing the player on a strict path, á la modern Sonic game. But I see why that would be annoying. Could you name some examples? I can't think of too many that you didn't already mention, and in most of those, you don't have to redo a large part of the level.

Worse, missing some jumps sends the player to an empty area, especially in Deep Sea Zone, where many deep pools of water contain nothing but sparse scenery, one or two enemies, and a lone spring or zoom tube the player has to hunt for in order to 'try again.' One example: in DSZ2, after the water currents, where you jump a sequence of floating platforms while the water level rises. Or what purpose does this serve from DSZ1?
Many of these empty areas are so empty because filling them up would lag the game badly. DSZ is already nearly unplayable on older computers. I do agree that the zoom tube is terrible though and needs to be replaced.

In the classic games (e.g. Sonic 3 & Knuckles), sometimes falling off a platform makes you go back, but not as often. More commonly one of three things happens:


  1. You rejoin an alternate, lower path through the level. This is my favorite, because it's seamless and keeps the game's momentum. Jumping correctly might lead to a path that is shorter, more fun or has more bonuses, but in this case it isn't required.
This happens a few times in SRB2. Take the first room in DSZ1 and the second one if you take the lower path. Sure, the second example also has one of these extremely empty areas, but if you fall down, you get to take another path. But of course, you can't do that everywhere in a level. Sometimes the layout of the level makes it impossible, sometimes adding a path below another one would require tons of FOFs that would lag badly, and sometimes we just have enough paths already.

2. Nothing really. Perhaps you fall into a shallow pit that you can jump right out of, or a spring is close by. If there's spikes, you lose your rings but get right back up.
Happens very often in SRB2. In the screenshot from DSZ1 for example, that's exactly what happens. The rooms are just larger than in 2D games for obvious reasons, so they appear empty. A spring is often at the beginning of the area you fell into.

3. You die. Where a higher level of difficulty is intended, some of these falls should probably lead to death pits, including the DSZ2 example. Let 'em off easy or kill 'em, but don't just annoy them.
Death pits can increase difficulty in an extreme manner. DSZ already has a reputation of being rather hard for newcomers, so removing chances to recover from falls would make it frustrating. In later levels, especially ACZ, we already do that.

Levels can be confusing, even maze-like. What seems like the path ahead can lead backwards to an earlier part of the level. This happens often in Deep Sea, Arid Canyon, and Castle Eggman, and a little in Egg Rock.
In Egg Rock? Egg Rock has almost no path splits at all. I can't think of a single example there. Otherwise, I don't see that happening much either, but it's entirely possible that I just played the game for too long to notice.

But consider a not-so-great example from ACZ. After the cliffs with oil slicks and an attraction shield, you go up a red spring, through a hallway and down a stair-slope. At the bottom of this stair-slope is a confusing area (screenshot). There's a platform straight ahead, which suggests going straight. But the platform is not reachable, and that direction only leads backwards. There's also a platform slightly on the right, but it's isolated and contains only some rings, no way to proceed. The correct path is a 90 degree left turn, very counterintuitive on a first run through the level. It seems like putting a rope fence here would really help.
That's a really good catch. I definitely agree that this should be made more obvious.

In CEZ1, a sequence of wooden platforms leads to... a closed gate. To proceed, you have to deliberately fall off the platforms into a lake, and find currents leading to an underwater tunnel.
Yes, that area sucks. CEZ is general is being reworked majorly for later versions. I hope this problem will be dealt with.

Most of the windows in ERZ2 are only for scenery. But at one point, you're going through a hallway and you suddenly have to make a 90 degree left turn, exit through a small window, and jump up some platforms. It seems illogical and anyone not used to this transition is going to go straight ahead, hitting a dead end.
I have no idea what area you're talking about. Mind taking a screenshot?

Later in ERZ2, there's a mostly empty room where you jump into a glass tube on the wall which takes you briefly outside, then back in at another end. Then you go into a tiny, claustrophobic passageway, hidden behind some crates (which rarely fails to get the camera stuck). This has never made any sense to me.
This glass tube shrinks you so that you fit through the hole. I am surprised that you didn't notice how much smaller you were in the next few rooms. Maybe the hole should be in plain sight so that players will see that they can't fit through it without being shrunk. The passageway itself is too small, yes.

Some stages feel too much like obstacle courses. I'm especially thinking of Egg Rock, which I'm surprised got designed the way it is under Mystic's leadership, because it violates a principle of game design that he himself articulated to me once. That is: don't max out the difficulty constantly, because it isn't fun. You want to have parts of a level that are hard, and parts of a level that are relatively easy, offering relief.

This is deliberate. Egg Rock is supposed to be a giant ultra-hard obstacle course. And if you added parts to ERZ2 where you just run for a while, the level would be way too huge.

and on top of that, act 2 is absurdly long.
Actually, the general consensus is that Act 1 is absurdly short and needs to be expanded.

But there's another way the levels feel like obstacle courses that's more subtle, and also applies to some of the earlier zones, like Deep Sea and Castle Eggman. Instead of the zones feeling continuous, I'm very conscious of moving from one "room" to the next, each room with a specific focus: In this room you jump from platform to platform. In that room you go around riding up the moving platforms. And so on. The classic games were sometimes like this, but you usually breeze on through and don't notice it; you don't have to stay in one room for like 20-30 seconds or more, the way you do in, say, the first big underwater area in DSZ1.
I don't think a focus on rooms is something bad. Architecture is large part of the visual appeal of SRB2, and I don't think it takes anything away from gameplay. I don't think it impedes the flow either. There are always transitions between the rooms to make sure the player can keep moving. Sure, the classic 2D Sonic games didn't have such a big emphasis on rooms, but I view that as a limitation. The lack of a third dimension makes it very hard to design impressive-looking rooms and gives the whole game an abstract feel. In a more elaborate 3D game, emulating that would lead to a catastrophe. The landscapes would become implausible, the levels would feel fragmented instead of flowing. No, rooms are a good thing and I feel that in this case it's good we left the classics behind and did something new. don't have a problem with staying in one room for 20-30 seconds, and that doesn't make the level feel like an obstacle course to me.

DSZ2 and ERZ2 feel like a designer's playground for testing game ideas.
I agree. With ERZ2, that's on purpose. With DSZ2, especially during the latter half, that is indeed a problem that needs to be tackled.

So yeah, thanks for the review. You made a lot of valid and important points, and I hope the dev team will consider them. Note that what I said is merely my own opinion. Many others might disagree about certain things.
 
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The longest lasting Sonic Fangame I know and is one of the best.

I like how it can be modified with custom content, it was built of a first person shooter engine and how it has an integrated 2D engine within the 3D one. There is plenty more I could go into.

I don't think there is anything I don't like about it.
 
The only reason for the 'room' concept is technical limitation, really.

But hi!
 
Hi, a441! Thanks for the WadAuthor tutorial back in the day!

You bring up good points, though admittedly none I hadn't thought of myself. I have to disagree with your criticism on Egg Rock Zone, as I quite enjoy the ridiculous (but ultimately fair) challenge the game gives you, something that was honestly never done in any of the classic Sonic games. (An example of unfair challenge would be the final boss, which is only difficult due to bad collision detection.)

Could you name some examples? I can't think of too many that you didn't already mention, and in most of those, you don't have to redo a large part of the level.
ACZ is particularly guilty of this, where you spend a lot of time climbing up a single room, or later return to a previous room but at a higher altitude -- for instance, the area in the screenshot a441 posted: you fall down here and you have to climb all the way up again. ERZ2 also has this on occasion, such as the large cylindrical room with the blue platforms which you go through twice, or the detour through outer space in order to open the door to the turret room.

I have no idea what area you're talking about. Mind taking a screenshot?
He's referring to the powered down elevator on the right path. To be honest, I found the powered down laser in the left path much more confusing than the elevator -- if you miss the window, you instantly run into a wall if you keep moving forward, so there's not exactly a lot of room to get lost in.
 
ACZ is particularly guilty of this, where you spend a lot of time climbing up a single room, or later return to a previous room but at a higher altitude -- for instance, the area in the screenshot a441 posted: you fall down here and you have to climb all the way up again. ERZ2 also has this on occasion, such as the large cylindrical room with the blue platforms which you go through twice, or the detour through outer space in order to open the door to the turret room.
Ah yes, those can be quite a hassle indeed. But regarding the cylindrical room, if you screw up, you'll probably hit the pit instead of the lower platform. Unfortunately, these problems are quite hard to fix, and in the case of ACZ. it would also take away a lot of the appeal.

He's referring to the powered down elevator on the right path. To be honest, I found the powered down laser in the left path much more confusing than the elevator -- if you miss the window, you instantly run into a wall if you keep moving forward, so there's not exactly a lot of room to get lost in.
Hmm, I never thought of that as a real window, actually. And it seemed obvious where to go on first sight pretty much. The powered down laser an be quite confusing, yes. It's not entirely obvious what you have to do once you pressed the first button or where the first button even is.
 
  • But consider a not-so-great example from ACZ. After the cliffs with oil slicks and an attraction shield, you go up a red spring, through a hallway and down a stair-slope. At the bottom of this stair-slope is a confusing area (screenshot). There's a platform straight ahead, which suggests going straight. But the platform is not reachable, and that direction only leads backwards. There's also a platform slightly on the right, but it's isolated and contains only some rings, no way to proceed. The correct path is a 90 degree left turn, very counterintuitive on a first run through the level. It seems like putting a rope fence here would really help.
It would not be difficult to make the angle a little less extreme there, and not only is putting a fence there an option but we could put a string of rings to guide the player in the right direction. There are a lot of tools at our disposal for solving these problems, if only we know where to find them.

Also, I've played a few games where I actually quite like the whole "repeat a sequence if you fall down" bit if each fall raises the stakes by putting you in harms way for longer. Although if its just a tedious stretch of platforming that takes a while, then it can its not really worth the added frustration.
I liked the way Oceanic Cove used this, because it was an alternative to dying if you missed a jump. That said, it is a convention that really needs to be used in moderation. If you get to the point where you would rather commit suicide to hit a starpost halfway up than repeat the segment of the level over again then its getting absurd.

Just out of curiosity, have you tried the new MP system/maps yet? Some of the most dramatic changes have been made there.
 
Don't forget the awesome Master Server system, that's a pretty neat feature right...?

Right? :<
 
The only reason for the 'room' concept is technical limitation, really.

But hi!
Ha, I still love you, AJ. Don't you have a kid to raise or something? :P

Yeah, I figured as much. I know having huge open areas causes way too much lag and glitches. Still, some design tweaks could make the transition from room to room a bit less obvious.

[Falling and springing right back up] Happens very often in SRB2. In the screenshot from DSZ1 for example, that's exactly what happens. The rooms are just larger than in 2D games for obvious reasons, so they appear empty. A spring is often at the beginning of the area you fell into.
Well, my point here is that it takes a long time to get back to the beginning of the area and find the spring. By then you've spent what, 10-15 seconds doing nothing? That takes away some of the momentum and fun.

This [ERZ2] glass tube shrinks you so that you fit through the hole. I am surprised that you didn't notice how much smaller you were in the next few rooms. Maybe the hole should be in plain sight so that players will see that they can't fit through it without being shrunk. The passageway itself is too small, yes.
Oh. I think I did sort of notice I was small at some point, but didn't remember it was the glass tube that did it. Good call on putting the hole in plain sight.

Interestingly, this is not the only 'concept' in ERZ2 that I didn't get. What Neo Chaotikal describes as a powered down elevator was simply a random diversion to jump up some platforms as far as I could tell. Wasn't anyone else confused by this stuff on first encounter? The only reason I understood "Space Countdown" right off the bat was that I had seen and documented the code for it years ago, even fixed a bug in it.

This is deliberate. Egg Rock is supposed to be a giant ultra-hard obstacle course. And if you added parts to ERZ2 where you just run for a while, the level would be way too huge. [...]

Actually, the general consensus is that Act 1 is absurdly short and needs to be expanded. [...]

I don't think a focus on rooms is something bad.
These three answers suggest a difference in taste, and far be it from me to suggest that my preferences are superior to anyone else's. I do note that when you talk about deviating from the classic games as being a positive, that somewhat contradicts the stated motivation for SRB2 - to preserve the spirit of said games as much as possible while introducing a third dimension. (And AJ/SSNTails' statement above on the "room" thing would seem definitive as far as intentions.)

Having a super long obstacle course seems to me to be less in the spirit of Sonic and more in the spirit of another Genesis game (although better known in its NES version), Battletoads. Behold, Terra Tubes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9gD2s7PaI

Unless you've tried to beat Battletoads yourself, you may not appreciate just how fiendish that level is. The gears and spikes kill instantly, and the robots' lasers and most enemies kill you in two hits. I've seen that level reduce a grown man to tears. (The man was me.) The general consensus of people who've played Battletoads is that it's too blasted hard - I think most give up around level 3 (out of 12).

Now part of the reason I consider ERZ2 absurdly long is that I am unable to beat it on a single life, and believe me, I've tried. It drove me nuts to see this one act missing a time in the time attack screen, and I got addicted to trying to finish it (ultimately forcing me to quit SRB2 cold turkey, as this detracted from studying for finals). I must have tried over 100 times to beat this level in time attack mode, without success. And that puts it - uniquely in all my platformer playing experience - on a par with Terra Tubes.

If indeed the SRB2 developers and community prefer this 'ultra-long obstacle course' concept, it would be pointless to argue. But such a construction is qualitatively different from how the classic games' last levels challenge you. It's also far less friendly, and pretty much anathema to a casual player ever completing the game. People who participate on a game's message board are likely to be the type of player who enjoys trying a level over, and over, and over again, until they get it just right. I'm not hatin' - I know that can be fun. I played Battletoads up to level 9, after all. Other players, however, are happy to retry levels to some extent, but ultimately want to beat the game and get on with their lives before they get sick of it. Original Sonic better accommodates this crowd - barely anything in even Scrap Brain, Death Egg, etc. is downright sadistic.

Perhaps the only point I'm really making here is I'm a poorly skilled player. Well, anyway, I do think there would be gameplay merit in breaking up the action a little bit in both acts of Egg Rock, and this could go hand in hand with making act 1 longer - by adding open areas, not more hazards. For act 2, (sorry but) I honestly think some of the more arcane challenges, like the shrinkage and the powered down elevator, should just go. As some poet said once, "A poem is not finished when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to remove." Just because it was created, doesn't mean it should stay. But if all the gimmicks are too beloved, maybe split the level into two acts. I don't believe there's a technical reason act 3 couldn't start with a (relatively short) sequence of obstacles, followed by a checkpoint and a door opening into the boss room. This would be a dramatic improvement, from my point of view.

To be honest, I found the powered down laser in the left path much more confusing than the elevator -- if you miss the window, you instantly run into a wall if you keep moving forward, so there's not exactly a lot of room to get lost in.
I don't think I have ever taken the left path far enough to see that. If I had, I would probably agree with you.

Don't forget the awesome Master Server system, that's a pretty neat feature right...?
There was already a master server in place in 2004/2005. Was I supposed to notice something different about joining games?

Just out of curiosity, have you tried the new MP system/maps yet? Some of the most dramatic changes have been made there.
Tried a match briefly, but my crappy wireless connection forced me to leave lest I lag it up for everyone. My first impression was 1) it feels a lot less like Sonic and a lot more like a regular FPS, and 2) for me personally, that's a bad thing - I suck at every FPS I've played, and could never come to grips with mouse control.

I have fond memories of throwing rings around in small, symmetrical levels, using 100% keyboard control, and - occasionally - even winning a game! That's clearly all in the past, but I'm ok with that. :) For most players, who don't share my limitations when it comes to FPS games, or my fetish for symmetry, I'm sure the changes are all to the good.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, everyone!
 
Well, my point here is that it takes a long time to get back to the beginning of the area and find the spring. By then you've spent what, 10-15 seconds doing nothing? That takes away some of the momentum and fun.
Maybe there should be more than one way to get out in a few places. But that would of course allow players to skip substantial parts of an obstacle. I agree that this is a problem, but it's a tough one to fix sometimes.

Oh. I think I did sort of notice I was small at some point, but didn't remember it was the glass tube that did it. Good call on putting the hole in plain sight.
The glass tube was split in half, and the second half of the tube was smaller. But maybe the tube should allow the player to see how it shrinks him instead of obscuring it. Also, in past versions, getting shrunk was far more obvious due to tons of glitches. So probably nobody noticed that it became less obvious once those issues were fixed.

Interestingly, this is not the only 'concept' in ERZ2 that I didn't get. What Neo Chaotikal describes as a powered down elevator was simply a random diversion to jump up some platforms as far as I could tell. Wasn't anyone else confused by this stuff on first encounter? The only reason I understood "Space Countdown" right off the bat was that I had seen and documented the code for it years ago, even fixed a bug in it.
Well, I know I wasn't confused by the elevator at all. I immediately recognized it as that. Regarding the Space Countdown thing, that might actually be a bit hard to understand at first sight. But I can't think of an easy way to make it visually obvious that the player isn't getting any air.

I do note that when you talk about deviating from the classic games as being a positive, that somewhat contradicts the stated motivation for SRB2 - to preserve the spirit of said games as much as possible while introducing a third dimension.
Back when you were part of the development team, that motivation was truer than it is today. SRB2 has grown into quite a different beast in a few respects. I have always been slightly critical of some aspects of the classic Sonic games personally, so maybe that contributes to my impression here. To each their own I guess, although I wouldn't see a problem in introducing a bit of "breathing space" in ERZ. There is actually some of it in several areas, but most of those sections are abnormally short. I guess that's because of how the level is built. There's not really any space to do that effectively. Also, note that the boss in ERZ3 is actually the Dark City boss.

For act 2, (sorry but) I honestly think some of the more arcane challenges, like the shrinkage and the powered down elevator, should just go.
These are actually two of my favorite sections from that level, and I think a lot of people would agree with me there. To each their own, I guess.

There was already a master server in place in 2004/2005. Was I supposed to notice something different about joining games?
Go to ms.srb2.org. There's a great interface for retrieving server information now. We also divided the MS into rooms, so there is now a "Standard" room for playing the regular SRB2 gametypes, and a "Casual" room for more unconventional things, like roleplaying or any kind of new "gametype" that is invented by players out of existing ones.


I have fond memories of throwing rings around in small, symmetrical levels, using 100% keyboard control, and - occasionally - even winning a game! That's clearly all in the past, but I'm ok with that. :) For most players, who don't share my limitations when it comes to FPS games, or my fetish for symmetry, I'm sure the changes are all to the good.
The truth is that the old system had tons of problems. Of course, you have lots of fond memories from the old days, so I understand why you don't really like it, and that's okay. But from an objective point of view, there's a lot more balance now, even if that has made Match more generic.
 
<Text about ERZ2's difficulty in time attack>
I think the problem here is that we're forced to make time attack restricted to one life due to quirks in how the player respawns. ERZ2, while long, is perfectly reasonable if the player has a few extra lives available to try it with. As a note, using Tails here for Time Attack won't harm you any for purposes of unlockables, so that is probably a good option if you don't have the patience to do it as Sonic. Unless you're TMM and some kind of time attack god it won't make much of a difference in your time anyways.

Just so you know, I liken ERZ more like Scrap Brain than any other classic Sonic level. SRB2 in general actually feels a lot like Sonic 1 in lots of places, and the final level is most definitely an example of that. ERZ might be a slight bit too hard, but that's more because the penalty for failure is a bit too high when the mechanics are being introduced than the difficulty itself being too high. Some of these gimmicks need a much more reasonable introduction before throwing the high-end difficulty at the player. It's certainly nowhere near as impossible as Battletoads. Unlike Battletoads, it's actually possible to avoid most of the hazards in ERZ the first time through with good reaction time, and with a little memorization the stage ceases to be overly hard. I do want some of the more difficult gimmick rooms to have their gimmick explained beforehand before killing the player, though. The fan room in ERZ2 in particular comes to mind as being stupidly cheap, and the space countdown sector's introduction in ERZ1 is pretty much an assured death because it's introduced to the player with no prior knowledge at all, and they have only 11 seconds to figure out what's going on AND get to air in time. That's simply not reasonable.

I actually do like ERZ in general, even with its failings in places. It's a challenging but extremely engaging end to our game, and even with certain problems with some areas being a bit too difficult without explanation, I'm a huge fan of the scale of it.

It is nice to see that you enjoyed the game in general, though. We very rarely get thought-out positive feedback, so it's nice to have.
 
and the space countdown sector's introduction in ERZ1 is pretty much an assured death because it's introduced to the player with no prior knowledge at all, and they have only 11 seconds to figure out what's going on AND get to air in time. That's simply not reasonable.
We kinda fixed that. The first thing you see in that room is the blue air sector.
 
However there's nothing to imply to the player that it's beneficial. In fact, earlier in that very stage blocks of solid color were most definitely BAD to touch. The mechanic needs to be introduced far better.
 
Mystic, I just revisited Scrap Brain to refresh my memory, since the first Sonic is my least played. I can see what you mean - there's a similar feel.

On Scrap Brain, though, the difficulty isn't maxed out to the same degree. There's a lot of insta-death via pits and crushing, yes, but more often there are hazards that just take your rings. There's the intermittent laser showers and flame jets, the bear enemies that throw gold bombs, the rolling gears, and so on. These add excitement to the game while ultimately being harmless in most cases unless you're too slow getting your rings back.

Egg Rock doesn't have much of that. Just a few lasers and Badniks, and they're often rigged to get you to fall into a death pit as soon as you're hit - for example, this never fails to happen to me when the pop-up turrets nail me right before act 2's rotating crushers. Happens sometimes with the turret and green slime, too.

In fact, it was the insta-death green slime that first suggested the Battletoads comparison. Classic Sonic has no substance or object that kills instantly upon touch but this is extremely common in Battletoads. Likewise, the horizontal black holes in the wind tunnel bit are a new invention in Sonic's universe. Battletoads (and Egg Rock) rely on blunt force to put the player in danger, whereas classic Sonic is often more clever: by combining several hazards that in isolation would only take your rings, the game catches you off guard and can really stymie you.

In Scrap Brain, there are several gimmicks and hazards that you're introduced to, and then you see them again and again. The open-and-close floors above death pits, for example, or any of the ring-taking stuff I mentioned above. These hazards sometimes startle you by appearing jointly, yet they stay the same in their function. (Death Egg act 2, from Sonic & Knuckles, is pretty much like this as well.)

Not so in Egg Rock, where there's a lot of one-offs: the pop-up turret area, the wind tunnel, the scrambled blocks falling, the rotating crushers, the conveyors where jumping reverses gravity... none of these appear a second time unless I'm forgetting. It's easier to deal with a hazard you've seen before than learn a new one. This ties into what you're saying about introducing new game mechanics; how can you provide a good introduction for something that only appears once? Also, the failure of these game mechanics to ever return adds to the "junkyard of gimmick ideas" feeling I mentioned. Why not pick a few of the best gimmicks and repeat them with variations, instead of having something totally new around each corner?

In fairness, Wing Fortress Zone uses one-off hazards, but they tend to be simpler and more obvious, mostly boiling down to: "don't fall off." And there aren't as many. The developers clearly selected the best bits they had come up with and left the rest out.

Also, towards the end of Scrap Brain 2, I just found an invincibility monitor, and it wasn't even that well hidden. I just had to walk up a platform when the natural tendency was to walk down the next lower one. And some of the twirling platforms that usually send you to your death send you to ring monitors instead, in a few cases. This shows that even in the last level of the game, Sonic 1 isn't single-mindedly bent on tripping you up. There are still bonuses to be found, which I'm sure there are in Egg Rock as well but maybe not this easily. (I know where an attraction shield is - that's about it.)

Finally, on the first try, I beat Scrap Brain act 2 in 3:04, and I was by no means rushing. That seems a good level length to me. On a typical attempt at Egg Rock act 2, I'd be lucky to be halfway done in 3 minutes, and that's having memorized the first half of the level quite well.

I have a newfound respect for Scrap Brain acts 1-2 after making this comparison. I'm almost inspired to set up Doom Builder and try to make my own ERZ redesign that captures Scrap Brain's spirit. (Almost. Someone with more youthful vim/vigor should do it.)
 
Humorously you've actually pointed out two of my personal things for removal, that stupid Nitric Citadel slime and the wind tunnel (because the wind tunnel is stupidly unfair). The green slime should be replaced with a normal painful hazard and the wind tunnel could probably just be removed because it isn't all that much fun.

There are actually quite a few hidden items in ERZ, and a few completely out in the open items as well, but I do agree we probably need a few more things lying around.

a441 said:
for example, this never fails to happen to me when the pop-up turrets nail me right before act 2's rotating crushers.
Which area is this? I don't recognize it from the description.
 
I actually LIKED the green slime section in ERZ. And I think the wind tunnel should stay, though I agree it's way too hard. Surely there's a way to tone down the difficulty and make it more fun.
 
The wind tunnel should stay but I think the upside-down part should be removed. Its just not fun and seems a little unfair. Maybe make a platform jumping bit, I don't know. Maybe flip the camera behind you and you have to dodge objects from behind you. I'm just spitting out ideas.
 
The thing about the wind tunnel is that it's unintuitive and also we already used that gimmick back in DSZ. While I don't mind reusing gimmicks occasionally, it doesn't really make sense in that context. Wind pushing you slower than you run doesn't really make sense anyhow.
 
I'm referring to the small outside area you go to after the Detons fly at you, and right before the conveyor belt into the rotating crushers. It has a death pit, a few blue platforms with spikes, and pop-up turrets on two of the platforms.
 
However there's nothing to imply to the player that it's beneficial. In fact, earlier in that very stage blocks of solid color were most definitely BAD to touch. The mechanic needs to be introduced far better.

You mean those teleporting blue blocks that you have to use as platforms to get across spikes and a pit, or that one that reverses your gravity so you can escape the rising laser field of death right before the space room?

Honestly, it's basic videogame logic that blue = good, yellow = caution/sorta bad, and red = danger/bad. ERZ1 adheres to that the entire level. I can't speak for anyone else, but the first time I played ERZ1 I knew that the blue thing was good not only because of that basic convention, but because it stood out during a situation that was otherwise terminal. Now that it's placed directly in front of you when you exit the zoom tube, it's even reasonable to expect that the player can save themselves the first time if they're quick.
 
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