2.1 Emblem Feedback

I must admit that I've not been actively searching for emblems, so I can't say much about the radar/hint system. From what I've seen, the hints are pretty useful.
I didn't have much motivation to search for all those emblems since I already knew most of the rewards, but that's obviously a non-issue to those who are new to the game. I like the emblem system, but I feel that 5 emblems might be a little much for one level.
Furthermore, I think the emblems should be more of a reward for finding every path and potentially getting on a path that requires skill to get on or something like that, similar to how Sonic Generations' Red Rings did it, I disliked it when there were emblems like the emblem in GFZ2 where you climb up to that large waterfall near the beginning. I think you shouldn't be forced to check every little corner in the level to find an emblem as searching for them can get tedious even with the radar and hints. Those spots are better suited for extra lives.

This might be something interesting to look at: As I was first playing the game, I decided to take a picture whenever I found a new emblem, specifically with feedback purposes in mind. By going along with the pictures, you can get a basic idea of how I played the game and which emblems had me stumped for a while, which might be useful, I dunno. Here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ukcajjfgqu5uhrn/AABrdX8frkmmnLZQ_ugeU3Vta

• How many emblems did you get?

• Did you like the emblem hint and radar system? If there were any hidden emblems that you still couldn't find and had to resort to a guide, which ones were they?

• Did you find the record attack requirements reasonable? Again, if any of them felt too hard (or too easy for that matter), which ones were they?

• Did you find the emblem collection aspect of 2.1 fun?

Mystic said:

How many emblems did you get?

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Let's see...

91/160, over about 23 hours.

Mystic said:

• Did you like the emblem hint and radar system? If there were any hidden emblems that you still couldn't find and had to resort to a guide, which ones were they?

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I LOVED the emblem hints system. It made hunting for emblems a lot of fun since I had to decrypt each hint and figure out what part of the level it was talking about. I really think it needed to be unlocked about 5-10 emblems earlier, though. Had a lot of trouble scraping together the emblems to unlock it since some of the emblems are nigh impossible to find unless you have the hints (I'm looking at YOU, emblem up the tiny shaft in that little cave!) Just my 2 cents.

The radar was great for rounding up the last few stray emblems I couldn't find. Right now I'm only missing a handful in Egg Rock Zone 2 and...um...All of the emblems in Azure Temple because GOD Azure temple is hard as hell.

As for tricky ones...that stupid one in the dark tunnel in Deep Sea Zone was obnoxious as hell since it was really hard to actually line myself up with it basically while blind. Aside from that, and that one in Azure Temple that seems to require me to not get hit at all until the end, I think they're all pretty reasonable and rewarding to find. :)

EDIT: OOH! One more little thing. It would be VERY nice if the switches for the AGZ emblems were different somehow. There are 6 different ones, 4 for one emblem and 2 for the other, and they all look the same, so I had no idea which ones opened which ones, leading me to just try to hit all 6 in one run in the end to simplify things.

Mystic said:

• Did you find the record attack requirements reasonable? Again, if any of them felt too hard (or too easy for that matter), which ones were they?

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The speed based ones are all somewhat in the ballpark of reasonable. I just seem to not be fast enough for some of them. (glares at Greenflower 2's speed emblem, which is taunting him insultingly)

The ring ones and the score ones are.....not really that fun, I feel. The ring one is mostly about "can you avoid getting hit while taking as many detours as possible?" and score....I'm not totally sure what to do aside from trying to gather as many enemies in one place as possible to chain them all, which is more tedious than anything.

Mystic said:

• Did you find the emblem collection aspect of 2.1 fun?

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Resounding yes.

Just when I was feeling "done" with the game for a while, I found out I was only a few emblems away from the emblem hints and I pushed for them. Using them to hunt for the hidden emblems revitalized the whole experience for me and I loved it. The hidden emblems were fantastically done.

The record attack ones I'm still going on-and-off trying to challenge. I'm mostly interested in the speed based ones, since I like learning levels to speedrun them. :P

Mystic said:

Obviously, general feedback on the emblem system unrelated to the above questions is also appreciated.

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Ummm...Aside from "Make emblem hints unlock a tiny bit earlier", and "I'm not the biggest fan of score attack and ring attack" all I can really say is "Good job! I wish there was more!" :P

I REALLY enjoyed ferreting out the hidden ones. Focusing on pure exploration gave me a new appreciation for the levels.

So, out of curiosity, those of you who dislike the ring/score emblems, would it improve matters if the requirements weren't as strict and you just had to do a nice clean run through one route instead of scouring the stage? As we set the requirements for score we half intended the requirement to be a kind of puzzle, where you had to figure out how to get a large chain with invincibility or armageddon to match the score. If you're interested in that kind of optimization, that kind of thing is interesting, but if you're not it's probable that you may find it frustrating trying to figure out the trick to each stage.

Hmm. Probably not. I think lessening the requirements would just cheapen the whole thing. I don't find the score emblems fun, but they're entirely optional so I just don't bother getting them. For people who like trying to solve the "puzzle" for each stage's score emblem, lessening the requirements would just make the game worse for them.

Mystic said:

So, out of curiosity, those of you who dislike the ring/score emblems, would it improve matters if the requirements weren't as strict and you just had to do a nice clean run through one route instead of scouring the stage? As we set the requirements for score we half intended the requirement to be a kind of puzzle, where you had to figure out how to get a large chain with invincibility or armageddon to match the score. If you're interested in that kind of optimization, that kind of thing is interesting, but if you're not it's probable that you may find it frustrating trying to figure out the trick to each stage.

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There should be more puzzle part in score attack. I think there should be more possibilities to find hidden (or not already planned) tricks. It's way more fun than trying to get perfect bonus from each stage.
I don't know what would be good for ring attack. It's not hard, it just takes a lot of time. It could be like "find 200 rings in 5 minutes" or something like that. It would be way more fun at least for me.

My suggestions on Ring/Score attack: Remove Score attack emblems completely in vanilla, as you either get that when hunting for Rings, or you get enough Rings for the Ring emblem when hunting for Score.
The Score attack feature should still be there, and it could give emblems in mods, but it's really un-SRB2-y to me in vanilla as it is right now.

And for Ring attack, put a timelimit (5-15 minutes, should not be the same for all stages), so I don't spend more than a half hour in DSZ1, DSZ2, RVZ1, etcetera (again) to get rings, just to realize I bypassed the target by more than a hundred rings.
For mods, the timelimit should be an optional feature for both Ring attack and Score attack, and if not specified should default to infinite.

Edit: Also, ERZ3 + Time emblem? No. ERZ3 + Ring emblem? Acceptable, if the boss fight wouldn't be there. Only acceptable if there still was that time "limit" before the "checkpoint", though, as otherwise it would also be a slow un-SRB2-y run and such. ERZ3 + Score emblem? No.

I have to say, that the new emblem system is one of the greatest things that happened to SRB2. I had a lot of fun searching for them. Also, Unknownlight's suggestion with the achievement emblem is absolutely awesome. I would rather do some unique requirement for each stage rather than using armaggedon shields and invincibility in to get a better score.

1. 141/160
2. Yes. Very helpful features. All the in-level emblems were pretty easy, the special stage and score emblems were my problem.
3. Some yes, others no. The hardest ones were ERZ2 score, Pipe Towers score and ACZ score.
4. Yes.

Zwip-Zwap Zapony said:

Edit: Also, ERZ3 + Time emblem? No. ERZ3 + Ring emblem? Acceptable, if the boss fight wouldn't be there. Only acceptable if there still was that time "limit" before the "checkpoint", though, as otherwise it would also be a slow un-SRB2-y run and such. ERZ3 + Score emblem? No.

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You just need to find the trick in the boss fight to finish it easily with all the rings. Actually many people have achieved all those emblems on one run.
Criss1098's run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwZg27n_8kQ&list=UUJp5XVO_aA69IiDLSi0MXKw
And there's still another trick that's not in the video. =)

Ors said:

You just need to find the trick in the boss fight to finish it easily with all the rings. Actually many people have achieved all those emblems on one run.

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Well, there's just ooone little giant humongous enormous difference. I'm not a super duper skilled mega lucky guy who has played that level over and over 100 times. I actually have a life.
That's of course sarcastic. I don't have a life, but I'm still not that skilled, nor that lucky. I doubt I'll ever get any of the record emblems for ERZ3 (at least not in 2.1).

Even though one can apparently dodge the pinch phase attack by standing on the corners of the arena (when I saw that, I was like wat), there's still that normal aimbutting attack, which will probably take away the rings from me, and thus also score (if I'll even make it to the arena before technically running out of air when I also have to collect rings), and leave me making silly videos in Source FilmMaker.

Mystic said:

So, out of curiosity, those of you who dislike the ring/score emblems, would it improve matters if the requirements weren't as strict and you just had to do a nice clean run through one route instead of scouring the stage?

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If you're going to have score/ring attack emblems at all, I'd like it to be done this way. It wouldn't infuriate those of us who don't enjoy scouring the entire level, and the people who are okay with the way it is now can compete with each other or try self-imposed challenges.

Ors said:

And there's still another trick that's not in the video. =)

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What is this other trick, exactly? I've done everything the player in that video did and still haven't managed to get the time attack emblem. Also, as a semi-related aside, Metal Sonic's rebounding pinch phase attack goes on for way too long and isn't fun to deal with. Devs, please remove it and replace it with something else.

How many emblems did you get?
I collected 92/160 emblems. For the most part I just enjoy playing through SRB2 for its own sake, so I'm not too bothered about collecting all the emblems. Although from time to time I'll pop into record attack and earn another emblem for my slowly growing collection.

Did you like the emblem hint and radar system? If there were any hidden emblems that you still couldn't find and had to resort to a guide, which ones were they?
Emblem hint system is good! There are a few emblems I just don't have the skills to collect, such as the armageddon shield one in Azure Temple. But I have collected the vast majority of emblems hidden in levels.

I do feel like there was a missed opportunity in there being no hidden warp zone room containing an emblem in Pipe Towers though.

Did you find the record attack requirements reasonable? Again, if any of them felt too hard (or too easy for that matter), which ones were they?
I had some difficulty with the emblems for new stages, but I got the impression that they were balanced to be especially difficulty because it was new content. Although I feel that ERZ2's record attack emblems were a bit too easy. Come now, nothing short of a perfect bonus should be good enough for ERZ2 ;)

Did you find the emblem collection aspect of 2.1 fun?
I still have a lot to collect, but it's fun! I'm going to slowly chip away at it from time to time.

I'll prove that it's way too easy to get the time-emblems! I'll finish every single player adventure map (except GFZ1 and THZ2) as Tails without spinning of flying, and get the time attack emblem.

EDIT: The link is in my signature

The time attack emblems aren't intended as challenges for highly skilled players.

I have around 56 emblems, most of these are scavenger hunt emblems since I don't have the patience or time to collect the ring/time/score emblems for anything other than GFZ. (I got A's in NiGHTS stages up through the volcano zone and then gave up)

I love the emerald hints, although I do think some of them are cleverer than others. I like the riddles or statements that jog your memory of a specific place from the level (eg: the V from DSZ) but don't like the blanket statements that have you aimlessly wandering (and how many bookcases and dungeons are there in CEZ2?). With that said I do think the latter would be more fun with the radar.

As I said, I didn't bother with most of the record emblems, I only play SRB2 once in a while these days anyway. All in all, love the new emblem feature, looking forward to seeing additional rewards to make the hunt more worth it.

SpiritCrusher said:

The time attack emblems aren't intended as challenges for highly skilled players.

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You certainly live up to your name, SpiritCrusher!

Some of those time attack emblems that I had to retry a good 20 times, trying to shave off every possible second and nail every shortcut perfectly are now meaningless! *cries in a corner*

XD

Mystic said:

So, out of curiosity, those of you who dislike the ring/score emblems, would it improve matters if the requirements weren't as strict and you just had to do a nice clean run through one route instead of scouring the stage? As we set the requirements for score we half intended the requirement to be a kind of puzzle, where you had to figure out how to get a large chain with invincibility or armageddon to match the score. If you're interested in that kind of optimization, that kind of thing is interesting, but if you're not it's probable that you may find it frustrating trying to figure out the trick to each stage.

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I actually like the score emblems that take this concept to the extreme - CEZ2, ATZ, and GFZ1 (when aiming for time bonus) come to mind. But in most maps, though opportunities to form huge chains exist, they're tedious to set up, and don't feel all that clever. For instance, in GFZ2, you can lure all the crawlas before the first set of yellow springs into one place to hit them with the nuke, but it's mindlessly boring and doesn't really match up with the word "puzzle".

On the other hand, taking a nuke to the CEZ2 room doesn't feel that clever, either, but at least it's a lot more fun.

I'd also like to give props to ATZ for having, imo, the most segregation between the ring and the score emblem. While the score emblem involved using all the armageddon shields to their fullest (and honestly not at all having to rely on ring bonus), the ring emblem has the player nabbing the force shield (if they're smart) and making it through the map without getting tossed around too badly.

EDIT: Another idea might be to reintroduce starposts and lives to the record attack. I don't know how feasible it is, but if the player could die and have the map reset to how it was at the starpost (including whatever rings, time and score the player had) it would make a death late in a long score attack be considerably less biting. And since life boxes are already replaced with point boxes, the player would only have three death abuses handy, as opposed to just being able to get as many lives as they wanted in the old time attack.

Mystic said:

• How many emblems did you get?

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129/160 in around 31h 15m. What I´m missing is:

• Rank and Time emblems in Blackhole. I don´t find that level fun enough to try them.
• Spring Hill Time emblem, I hate the solution and I´m not bothering with it :P
• Time, Ring and Score emblems in ERZ + Bonus levels. Again, just tedious and I haven´t even tried. ERZ3 personally should only have one emblem, as the hard part of all of them is actually surviving the entire level in one go.
• 5 hidden emblems in Azure Temple. Surviving the stage was kind of fun. Doing anything else get tedious too.
• CEZ1 Time Emblem. Didn´t find the right path and didn´t want to look at guides.
• DSZ, CEZ1 and ACZ Score Emblems. I can´t remember if I either found them boring or I just quit trying because previous emblems.

Mystic said:

• Did you like the emblem hint and radar system? If there were any hidden emblems that you still couldn't find and had to resort to a guide, which ones were they?

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I love the emblem hint and I think it should be unlocked from the beginning, as it wasn´t fun to unlock it after searching clueless for hours on some acts. Why not bring it from the beginning?


I dislike radar system. It makes most of the emblems too easy. I´m glad I unlocked it once I had only a few emblems left from bonus levels. Personally it could be used for something else, but I find the emblem search more fun with just the clues.

Mystic said:

• Did you find the record attack requirements reasonable? Again, if any of them felt too hard (or too easy for that matter), which ones were they?

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Time is generally ok, as most levels can be easier with some other characters.
Ring is usually ok too. It´s fun too as it means you have to explore more each of the levels.
Score for me is boring. I would prefer something else for sure. I just don´t find fun trying to gather many enemies or the need to do that thing or that other in that place. It just screams for a guide, and I dislike using them. I would prefer something like a 1up hunt, an enemy hunt, or something like that for sure.

Mystic said:

• Did you find the emblem collection aspect of 2.1 fun?

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It´s fun until the emblems get too hard for too little reward. Once you unlock everything except Pandora Box, there´s nearly no reason in wasting hours on a stage if you don´t like that kind of emblem. I personally would keep nice rewards until the end. I know for sure if there was an awesome new level, or character, or whatever after the last emblems, I would have tried to get them.

Mystic said:

Obviously, general feedback on the emblem system unrelated to the above questions is also appreciated. This topic is likely to contain some spoilers in the replies, so if you're still in the process of hunting for the emblems, you might not want to read beyond this point.

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What would I change, on my personal tastes:

• ERZ3 emblems are too hard IMO. Not even trying them as I barely can beat the stage in one go.
• Emblems on bonus levels aren´t fun for me. I just don´t find these stages as appealing as the main game, so I just can´t care about them. This is specially the case if these bonus levels are generally longer and harder than the main game.
• Score emblems aren´t fun for me. They are just time waster. I enjoy the ring ones though, as I love searching for things.
• I don´t find Time Nights emblems fun at all. I understand they are different in concept, but I just can´t enjoy them. Some of them, like the second one, are too strict. Spring Hill is specially the most annoying, as it requires to learn physics that aren´t featured in the rest of the game, just for. one. single. emblem. If there were more levels using them, I wouldn´t care though, I just find annoying the different physics needed just for one.
• Better rewards for getting more emblems.

Knuckles MetalMind said:

It´s fun until the emblems get too hard for too little reward. Once you unlock everything except Pandora Box, there´s nearly no reason in wasting hours on a stage if you don´t like that kind of emblem. I personally would keep nice rewards until the end. I know for sure if there was an awesome new level, or character, or whatever after the last emblems, I would have tried to get them.

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This is quite intentional. Emblem hunting is supposed to be fun, and those that don't like that kind of thing shouldn't be forced to do it just so they can access the content they're really interested in. A game that tricks you into doing something you don't want to do is honestly an insult to the player.

In 30 hours and 26 minutes (starting all the way back from when 2.1.0 came out), I've collected 136/160 emblems. I also liked how emblems were executed this time around and was one of the many things I was looking forward to. I still need to get a couple of emblems in levels like Azure Temple Zone and I still need a majority of the NiGHTS time emblems but other than that it was fun to explore some of the levels.