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Old 12-03-2015   #1
SAMMY SWAG
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Default So I'm curious about something regarding 2.2

Since super forms are being removed from Match and CTF in 2.2, I'm honestly curious what that means for Tails and Knuckles, since they can't turn super in single player and co-op.

In my opinion i really think that in 2.2, the super lock for Tails and Knuckles should just be removed, because 1: it would be a shame to see their awesome super forms to go to waste, and 2: I just think that not allowing them to turn super in single player and co-op is just stupid, because it pretty much makes collecting the chaos emeralds worthless.

I'm curious what you guys think.
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Old 12-03-2015   #2
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If I remember during this sort of question a while back, someone once answered with

"Sonic is underpowered lol he needs something to make him easy like Tails and Knuckles"

So don't expect Super Knuckles or Super Tails. Although that doesn't mean I don't want to see Super Tails and Super Knuckles. Just because they might already have an advantage over Sonic doesn't mean that I want my Emerald Hunting to go to a complete waste. Why should I spend so much time getting the Chaos Emeralds when they're pretty useless for me? I mean Knuckles could go super in the original games so it just seems kind of silly to me that they would put that restriction here.
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Old 12-03-2015   #3
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I can seriously see why this restriction is stupid but I personally don't play single-player or co-op. The only time I would play co-op is for hanging out on a server or hosting with WADs and LUAs.

Last edited by TechnoGod; 12-03-2015 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 12-03-2015   #4
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Originally Posted by Eliwood View Post
If I remember during this sort of question a while back, someone once answered with

"Sonic is underpowered lol he needs something to make him easy like Tails and Knuckles"

So don't expect Super Knuckles or Super Tails. Although that doesn't mean I don't want to see Super Tails and Super Knuckles. Just because they might already have an advantage over Sonic doesn't mean that I want my Emerald Hunting to go to a complete waste. Why should I spend so much time getting the Chaos Emeralds when they're pretty useless for me? I mean Knuckles could go super in the original games so it just seems kind of silly to me that they would put that restriction here.
Sonic may seem under-powered at first to a beginner, but once you have mastered him he is by far the best character, because his thok is very fast and it can be spammed allowing experts to blast through the levels with phenomenal speed, and combining that with some skilled badnik/monitor bouncing Sonic can travel some really impressive distances. So if their super forms are still locked for that reasoning, I'll be pretty disappointed. :/
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Old 12-04-2015   #5
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A bunch of reasons. Some are better than others, but they're reasons, so.

- We don't want to encourage everyone and their pet the dog to turn super like it was in the old days. Having every default character able to turn Super would create an artificial standard custom WADS need to live up to which we don't actually want to happen. We're happy with where 2.1 has taken characters and we want it to stay that way.

- Outside of the colours, Super Tails and Knuckles suck. Infinite flight? The game is broken enough by flight already as it is. And I can't even remember what Knuckles gets, it's that unmemorable. Sonic gets a seperate ability with actual thought put into it (float) which balances nicely with his other abilities. Meanwhile, Tails and Knuckles are already pretty well rounded in terms of mobility, so since float would be useless for them they're kind of stuck - and besides, it's not like there's any incentive to give them unique Super abilities. And no, don't consider this frank admission to be an invitation to suggest random ideas.

- Considering the colours, I did a major palette revamp that'll be ready for the next version. Every skin colour needed to be redefined, and I just didn't care enough to redo Tails and Knuckles' Super colours. This is by far the worst reason, but is anyone else going to add them back in considering there's no official Super forms for them anymore? I don't think so.

- A bunch of other stuff I can't remember because it's 2AM.

Besides, if you want them to turn Super in singleplayer you can always rig up a Lua script to allow it to happen. That's the wonder of a game modifiable by the community! Just don't expect it in the main game.
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Old 12-04-2015   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMMY SWAG View Post
Since super forms are being removed from Match and CTF in 2.2, I'm honestly curious what that means for Tails and Knuckles, since they can't turn super in single player and co-op.

In my opinion i really think that in 2.2, the super lock for Tails and Knuckles should just be removed, because 1: it would be a shame to see their awesome super forms to go to waste, and 2: I just think that not allowing them to turn super in single player and co-op is just stupid, because it pretty much makes collecting the chaos emeralds worthless.

I'm curious what you guys think.
I agree, its pointless if they have super forms, maybe just give them a special ending when the Chaos Emeralds are collected? I don't know, but it could be pretty neat to see that

~MK
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Old 12-04-2015   #7
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Another award instead, Like infinity rings that don't cost ammo ?
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Old 12-05-2015   #8
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If you want to see a long thread about this topic, see the old flamewar here: http://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=31504

To expand on what toaster said, the primary reason we don't allow super Tails or Knuckles is because we want our character choice to mean something. In S3K, collecting all the emeralds removed one of the best parts of S3K's design: each character plays significantly differently from each other. When super, each character is essentially the same, a speed demon which forces you to go fast to maintain the state. While the abilities vary somewhat by character, the way they play is always the same: move as fast as possible to continue to grab rings. The abilities that make Tails and Knuckles unique become a bad thing to use, as both flight and gliding slow the gameplay down significantly while super.

In SRB2, Sonic is the character primarily designed around going fast. Super is a tool in his arsenal that simply expands on what the character is already focused on doing, allowing you to go move even faster and more recklessly. Tails and Knuckles have a very different style of play. Giving them access to super basically just turns them into Sonic, which conflicts heavily with the more exploration-focused gameplay that Tails and Knuckles are designed around. While there are a lot of other good reasons not to allow Tails and Knuckles to go super, ruining the character variety is by far the most important one.

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I agree, its pointless if they have super forms, maybe just give them a special ending when the Chaos Emeralds are collected? I don't know, but it could be pretty neat to see that
This is something that's in the long-term plan, but you'll notice we don't have an ending at all currently, so that would be a long way off if ever.
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Old 12-05-2015   #9
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I've always felt that being able to go super at all was the reward for getting all the emeralds and beating all the special stages, it gives you an excuse to go out and try and collect them rather than nothing at all. While yes, it does make the player rediculously overpowered and take some of the uniqueness out of the characters, that's the beauty of a game that YOU'RE making, you have the freedom to change things and make them unique.

The point of being super is that you're really overpowered at the cost of rings, if you really need fuel that badly and Tails' and Knuckles' abilities aren't fast enough, make them faster or change their abilities in a way that doesn't clash with the whole going fast idea. Both Tails and Knuckles have abilities that make them super OP in Sonic 3K such as the super flickies and the super glide respectively, these abilities are fine in a 2D game because they kill everything on screen; and if you've ever tried to run through any classic 2D Sonic game, you realise that it is incredibly difficult not to collect rings.

These abilities don't particularly work in a 3D game, so changing those abilities to work better in 3D is a better idea than taking away a reward for the player working hard and thus all incentive for collecting the emeralds as anyone other than Sonic. Perhaps by boosting Knuckles' glide speed and removing the speed limit on Tails' flight or at least reducing the cost of speed would help, as well as possibly designing new buffs aside from "Tails gets infinite flight" and "Knuckles gets even LESS cooldown on his ring toss"
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Old 12-05-2015   #10
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So er, the only point of bothering yourself to get into special stages as Tails or Knuckles is basically to get continues you're never gonna use unless you're extremely bad at the game. ...But hey, when you know they dream of being Super Sonic and not Super themselves in the special stages, that already tells a lot. =P
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Old 12-05-2015   #11
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Each playable character in "Sonic 3 and Knuckles" was able to become super once They get all the Seven Emeralds and 50 Rings , It increases your speed and makes you invulnerable, Knuckles and Sonic were surrounded by sparkles While Tails was surrounded by Flickies in His super state , I don't mind if all characters were able to become super in Single-Player campaign .
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Old 12-05-2015   #12
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If all three of you who have posted since Mystic did had taken note to read his post (and the rest of the topic) properly before you posted, you would have seen that everything you've mentioned has been brought up and dismissed.

Rumia1: The thought about Super Tails and Knuckles going fast is bad because it makes them more like Sonic and reduces character variety. Making concessions to make these two characters faster misses the point of why we don't support this.

Lat': Once have endings, all-emerald specific endings will be next. Whilst it's true that this motivation doesn't exist yet, SRB2 is still an unfinished game.

RomioTheBadass: This post pays no attention to the rest of the topic and has been explained in detail previously, but the most important thing is that just because the Classics do it doesn't mean it's good game design. In addition, your call to nostalgia is incorrect; you could only turn Super Tails with the Hyper Emeralds.
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Old 12-05-2015   #13
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So we have all these sometimes well hidden emerald tokens, but the 2 characters based around exploration don't really get any reward from going out to find them?

Really the problem isn't that they don't get super, it's that they get no worthwhile individual reward at all for going out of their way. Just a slightly different ending would be pretty lame too.
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Old 12-05-2015   #14
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Don't get any reward?

Bonus levels! Continues! Points! Extra Rings After collecting all of them!
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Old 12-05-2015   #15
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Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
This is something that's in the long-term plan, but you'll notice we don't have an ending at all currently, so that would be a long way off if ever.
Now that i think about it, the game doesn't even have a ending, ahahah. That's great to hear that your trying to put it in
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Old 12-05-2015   #16
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I think you guys are missing the entire point by focusing only on the destination and ignoring the journey. In Sonic 1, there was only a slightly different ending sequence for getting all the emeralds, yet everyone I know who played Sonic 1 for any length of time got all the emeralds. They did it because it was a challenge proposed by the game and not because of the potential reward the game offered for it. When I got all the emeralds in Sonic 2 as a child, I didn't even know there WAS a reward. I just did it because the game presented a challenge to me and I stepped up wanting one. While the reward was cool and fun, the reward wasn't the point; the challenge was.

In SRB2, we present a challenge of getting all the emeralds, like the classic games. We also present the traditional reward for Sonic as a little extra bonus. The emblem for all emeralds is given to any character, and there's no part of the game that requires Super Sonic be used in any way. Hence, if all you care about is Super, feel free to just get the emeralds as Sonic and ignore them as Tails and Knuckles. However, if you actually enjoy collecting the emeralds and find the special stages fun, feel free to get them anyways! There's no explicit reward for it, but if you're enjoying yourself, why does that even matter?
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Old 12-06-2015   #17
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The reward of Super Sonic or anybody else for that matter was not only going fast but also leaving a trail of destruction in your wake, it felt really neat ot just be able to completely WRECK the bosses of the game because you did all this work to earn it, in match it could be nerfed a bit but I think if you've got a bunch of people playing different vanilla characters on a co-op server, it's nice to be able to join in on this fun and keep up with everybody. If you're playing anyone other than Sonic on a server after working together to get all the chaos emeralds, doesn't it make you feel a little left out that you're one of the few that is stuck being even slower than before compared to everyone playing as Sonic?

Now I get the whole reason of you don't want EVERY FRIGGIN' CHARACTER going super, it gets rediculous when even Mario has a Super form that's nothing more than an overpowered recolor. From what I've read, what we're trying to achieve here is a balanced game, and I don't think it's very balanced if one person just gets to super saiyan and everybody else is just left out, I also don't think that removing super forms from co-op or match is the way to go either. If we reworked superforms to be more balanced, we could have a nice mechanic that still thrives on the ideas of the classics and is a nice reward to the player(s) who went through the trouble of getting through stuff like Egg Satelite.

I have only ever gotten the emeralds once on my first playthrough of 2.1 and I didn't feel compelled to do so again on any subsequent vanilla playthroughs or even any playthroughs before that because I like playing as Tails, and to me, it's nowhere near satisfying if I go through all this trouble to earn something only to be told "Here's a bunch of continues!... except if you know how to play the game well you'll only use like one of these if you're not that great at ERZ3." An alternate ending would be kinda nice but seeing as endings are the last thing on the dev team's minds right now, it would be nice to have some form of compensation for the hard work and effort you put into the game.
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Old 12-06-2015   #18
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An alternate ending would be kinda nice but seeing as endings are the last thing on the dev team's minds right now, it would be nice to have some form of compensation for the hard work and effort you put into the game.
You ARE rewarded for collecting all the emeralds. Significantly. Over the course of beating the game with all emeralds, you obtain the following rewards:
  • The "Complete 1P Mode with all emeralds" extra emblem.
  • Unlock access to Aerial Garden Zone, which is necessary to unlock Azure Temple Zone.
  • Unlock access to all of the special stages in NiGHTS mode, which while not entirely necessary, makes unlocking Black Hole a lot easier.
  • Extra continues, lives, and score.
If you happen to be playing as Sonic while you do it, you get the additional EXTRA perk of getting to use Super Sonic.
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Old 12-06-2015   #19
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So this is what this means to me
basically I get:
  • An emblem that doesn't add or do anything to change the gameplay (I'm not trying to crap on completionists who like this sort of thing, but it seems like a really boring thing to just have bragging rights and nothing else.)
  • Access to a really neat stage... except the stage is so big and has so many graphical issues, be it major slowdown or the weird thing that happens in software mode which ends up making it pretty difficult to play well. (which I think either Red or Toaster explained in a previous thread.)
  • access to do the special stages again to get the chance to play another special stage that, again, I don't get a reward for beating except for another emblem,
  • And the afforementioned lives and continues and the added bonus of score which really does nothing except give you bragging rights yet again

I understand people like completing the game and getting 100% completion feels like an achievement to them. There's nothing wrong with that, but I like something that'll make me want to play the game again and test out. I like new unlockables that affect your gameplay or things like that, I love Mario Koopa Blast (and the newer Pipe Towers) and even the SRB1 mode because it all grants the player a new experience for beating the game. Heck, the reason I was so hyped for 2.1 was that there would be new experiences to have with the revamped levels and whatnot, Techno Hill is an awesome example of this. All these extra levels and unlocked gimmics give me something to play with while waiting for mods or even a new version of the game to be released, and by unlocking these things gives me even more satisfaction to unlocking it because I've proven my skills as a player and I get even more cool stuff because of it, and it makes collecting all those emblems worthwhile.
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Old 12-06-2015   #20
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I think you guys are missing the entire point by focusing only on the destination and ignoring the journey.
I think this still kind of applies to the above post. Most content will be unlocked simply by completing the main campaign with emeralds; a very feasible task for most people. Handing out beefy and awesome rewards for something mind-numbingly difficult would eventually drive players to do it only for the reward itself and not for the experience of doing it for self-satisfaction. This would, over time, leave people really frustrated over something that probably doesn't need that much frustration tied to it. I remember this being explained in another thread, but I forget which one.

I find if you want to challenge yourself and have new experiences post-game, you could try to chase 100% completion or simply throw in a few wads that change the game radically. I mean, I find the replayability of SRB2 staggering just from addons alone. also ultimate mode got harder so try that on for size


On the actual subject of Tails and Knuckles supers, it'd be cool to have them see use in co-op and not just get scrapped but I completely understand the reason why including them wouldn't be very practical. Finding tokens in of themselves require looking through all sorts of nooks and crannies that Tails and Knuckles have an easier time getting to. Sonic lacks any sort of vertical control and reaching tokens can be significantly harder for him, thereby justifying his unique reward.
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