SRB2 Multiplayer Survey Results
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PHCC
Too fast for you to see me.
I prefer knuckles, but I've seen more tails players playing in match now, and using the famous "strafe-fly" ability. I didn't record a video or take a screenshot, but a player that I forgot the name completely defeated me as Tails in meadow match. How?? Let me explain: he took a lot of bomb and rail rings, and used the strafe-fly....... but... it wasn't a normal and simple strafe-fly, he was strafe-flying around the stage and spamming rails and bomb rings on me, then, when Tails got tired he started again, and... I just couldn't beat him..... even with my rail skillz. God!!! Strafe-fly makes Tails so fast that he can't be an easy target. So, it isn't that Tails is underpowered, it is that the majority of the "matchers" doesn't know how to use tails properly.
Oh, and the player was strafe-flying in meadow match like that, but faster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdXgMLsptYc
Oh, and the player was strafe-flying in meadow match like that, but faster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdXgMLsptYc
I play netgames all the time and I have never once seen any of those people in them...
That link takes you to a video of "LunickTMM" (Tailsmastermind) essentially ripping the level a new one.
What he did there requires an insane amount of skill, and knowledge of the layout of the level - but even there, you're still going in blind in one eye.
He says it himself in a reply to one of my comments - it took him a couple of tries to get it right (he also says it's harder then thokking).
My point is: Tails is underpowered, if you have to do all that just to be equal (and even there..) to Sonic.
Also, he's one of the (if not the) best Tails players you'll ever see.
Hm, you even say it yourself, he's spamming rails and bombs. I'd have to guess it's because he's too busy focusing on strafe-flying properly (it does take alot of focus, in the video you linked to, he doesn't have to deal with players shooting at him).
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This is pretty much it. If you have to work harder than others to get your kill, it might be more than that character's skill floor that's lower than others'.
Kopper
Does not use Sonic.
This doesn't really mean he's underpowered. Could be that, unlike the single player, Tails is just the hardest to use. But unlike the single player, there's no clear strength between characters.
There's actually a special CTF skill only Tails can use that enables you to cross the map at once with the flag, but it's situational, requiring a high tower and a runway, so to speak. (AKA: I kicked LXShadow's arse at Iron Turret with it in the old days... until he caught on, then I was more careful and lost more often.) And I think the official rotation may have unintentionally depreciated it (well, not many people know about it...)
But that move from TailsMasterMind looks like it can come in handy anywhere. It's all a matter of knowing how and when to use it, something only a pro Tails could actually do.
As a game-lifelong Tails player myself, I find it a little inappropriate to comment on the other characters, except how I shape up in relation to other players using them. And get this. In general, barring lag or exceptional skill on the part of others, (or massive games, don't have tactics for those ones quite as much) I do rather well. Usually winning. I am slightly weaker in Match, but I owe that to my preference for CTF more than any character based handicap.
I have considered trying Knuckles out at times, but really only to see what the hell people have been harping on about him (and improve my anti-knux tactics too)
It's true that a lot of Tails players are poor players. These people either use Tails because they like him the most, or or because they're foolish enough to think the single player splash screen's character advice holds true for multiplayer games as well. Tails is definitely the Difficult but Awesome character, and to a lesser extent, Sonic is too. But they both exercise different skills, mostly.
Knuckles is easy to use and hard to master, unlike the other two. I have used him a little myself, like with Sonic. This was back when I was finding a main, you see. His ringspam rate makes it a lot easier to hit someone, even with the red ring... if you have rings. But his gliding can be tricky to hit with (use opengl, you can see better, same goes for Tails) and his climbing just plain sucks (although this is a balancing act) and his jumping makes him need to use it more often then he used to.
The problem with comparing so-called "equal" players is that how can you tell that they're equal, or that one didn't get lucky? How can you tell it was the characters used that tipped the balance, beyond a doubt?
And Blue Warrior, skill floor =/= skill ceiling or underpowered. Knuckles' skill floor is lower than a lot of characters. Does that mean he wins among newbies? Yes. Pros? Depends on the skill level of the player, as usual. While it is true that Sonic wins in a 32 player game, say, that's because the map rotation is designed for 6-12 players optimum, and therefore being able to run fast with bounce, explosion, and auto rings will pretty much kill everyone. (Although Tails can still fly ;))
The best thing to do is find your own favourite for each situation, and then develop tactics for use against all three in all the gametypes and maps.
The maps as well, have favourite characters, so to speak. Icicle Falls is an all-time HATEHATE of mine. Not that it's that annoying a level, but it looks to be designed for Sonic and Knuckles mainly. (coughspazzocough)
That said, I'm not BAD at it. It just shows that when I normally win against an opponent set, I might see a loss here. It's the cavern that's the problem. Tends to get in the way of Tails' more complicated manoeuvres... ah well, I can still be a sneaky bugger on the level, huh?
Contrast Cloud Palace, with three stories and a clear flightpath with decent cover. AKA: Sonic dominates the ground game, Tails the air, and Knux is good anywhere. (seriously, almost nobody takes the top route there, especially with the flag.)
Super forms... I don't think any character got a raw deal there. Sonic with his well-known abilities, Knux with his retropowered infinite gliding, Tails with infinite flight and the superwhirlwind. But Tails especially wins out with the speedup. Not only does it increase his footspeed to maximum, it also effects flight. Same goes for normal speedshoes. Doubling flightspeed and drastically improving acceleration and handling, it becomes cake to avoid rails, even without epic advanced moves (but if you're Super, rails aren't very effective anyhow)
Even going down every so often in flight can help avoid rings (especially not-rails, but rails too) as people tend to assume that Tails will always go up. Although aim-compensation and multitasking enough to be able to press jump and fire at different rates, while making sure your opponent can't do the same thing if they're also Tails is Difficult... but Awesome.
Tails is under-appreciated, because he's not as simple as firing a lot as Knux (possibly while gliding) or running and thokking as Sonic. Not a lot of FPS games really have an aerial game, and while Knuckles can be a demon when he gets up to speed, only Tails can start it from anywhere. (Not that it's always smart, mind you.) Due to this, a lot of players can't wrap their heads around him. Every character is hard to master. Tails is kind of hard to start off with. I still haven't learned him fully yet, and I've even made some people's "most irritating player" lists. (So has Commander Hypersonic... and I managed to turn a losing game around for the... red? team once on his server with about 150 ping (that's with the ping command, not on the MS list in-game which overestimates things a little,) but that's enough about that.)
The point about this so-called "roguish" hiding is that Tails can also access pickups faster most of the time, enabling you to come back with a shield and your favourite weapons, and then use that combined with your know-how and skill to make them think this is Touhou, and not Sonic. (Not that I play Touhou, not one for shmups myself.) With a survivalist bent, you should last ages before taking the two/three hits needed to dock you of your stuff. Just keep a look out for good railers and try to snipe them first, OK?
Although picking people up without chasecam or if they're jumping (even jumping in place) is definitely way too difficult. I'll say that definitely needs buffing.
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PHCC
Too fast for you to see me.
Not really, TMM, isn't the best Tails player that I've ever seen, and to let you know, to someone play in my server, he would at least be brazilian, or of some other country that is close to Brazil.These people doesn't play in other servers because they have an horrible c-lag there, so, you really doesn't know them, but there are incredible good players there.
Also, believing or not, he was spamming rails and bombs(well, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but every time that he shot a bomb or rail at me, he hit me), and yes, he was strafe-flying around the stage, but he frequently touched the ground to control the strafe-fly.
Kim the Fox!!!
What am I doing here?
Well, I'm one of those people that play with a charcter cuz it's the favorite. I play race with Tails among many Sonics even when I know he's slow. In Match I don't have too much skills, cuz Tails is a little slow flying, and that's such a pain. Well, I don't care, I just like to play as a fox.
EDIT
And as PHCC said, it's really difficult to see people with those skills here in brazilian servers, because if you're not brazilian be sure that the game will lag like hell.
EDIT
And as PHCC said, it's really difficult to see people with those skills here in brazilian servers, because if you're not brazilian be sure that the game will lag like hell.
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I'd like to note that the actual TESTED optimum is 4-8. This isn't to say the game doesn't work fine with more than 8, but in reality the game isn't really designed for it.
Sucks to be Brazilian, then. No seriously, there's nothing anyone can do about it. But there sure are some good Brazilian players too, don't you think?
Kim the Fox!!!
What am I doing here?
I know there are.
What on earth is that? I didn't know Tails had any skills when his flying is taken away because of the flag...
Strafe flying? I dunno... I wouldn't call myself a pro tails player, but I could do that. Actually, I figured out about that on my own when I first played srb2. Then again, I may actually be a pro tails player, it's just that I suck at aiming rings and have no Match skills whatsoever. But at least I'm ok at railing, and I can grab a flag and get it home. It's kind of easy, cause everyone expects you to come on the easiest route, and that's like running the gauntlet.
Playing as Knux in first person is a pain. The climbing with your face smashed against the wall is horrid. :(
Can you use opengl online???
Haha, I rather like sitting ontop of the pillars sniping, or spamming the cave with bounce rings...
Wha? You can PICK PEOPLE UP in multiplayer?! Heheh... *picturing flying people onto the enemies base in Cloud Palace*
Kopper
Does not use Sonic.
Fly into an enemy flag, so you're flying when you take it. Note what happens. Then take my advice.
Stop quote mining. "But that move from TailsMasterMind looks like it can come in handy anywhere. It's all a matter of knowing how and when to use it, something only a pro Tails could actually do." Just because you can, doesn't mean you're good at it.
A deliberate weak point. Going that high is meant to be Tails' strength, after all. If you really need to see where you're going, set up binds to use chasecam, and maybe zoom out some. (and a bind to unset chasecam, duh)
Just run it like you normally do, then go online ;) actually just came back from a netgame where OGL helped me smash a guy's head in.
Sitting on top of a very small pillar? Good way to get shot. You're better off flying. And Knuckles is better at the bounce spam, which is my point. Tails is weak there, not due to lack of special items, but due to level design.
rofllolol you didn't know that? But it's really hard, so good luck doing it practically.
Officially maybe, but the levels do work fine with 12 people. But 24 is as insane as WarioWare.
Which brings me back to my original argument: if you have to do that much, to be this much (this much being on par with Sonic and Knuckles), then he's underpowered.
In fact, another thing you say in your post:
Hard to master is right, but I wouldn't say Tails is easy to master (unless you consider mastery to be something else then I do).
OpenGl: not everyone can use that. For example: I can't use it without getting a horrible choppy framerate, and I can't stand playing SRB2 when it's not running at 35fps. It also makes shooting at people alot harder(For those who are wondering, it worked fine in 1.09.4).
Just saying it's kind of an unfair advantage, but it's always been there and I'm not complaining about it.
This game's winner is: Sonic the Hedgehog. Pleasantries aside, 70% (estimate: could be more could be less) of the game's I've played (be it in Race, Match or CTF), the person who won/had the most points was generally a Sonic character.
I never said they were equal: I said Tails was underpowered (Knuckles as well).
By the way: that was a long post :o, I did read it all, though.
Autosaver
Member
Ha ha, I knew the bounce ring would be the one that would be least missed.
I never find the ring to be useful in 90% of situations I'm in, I usually find that I use it mostly in bases.
Now you might find Grenade has the same issue, I disagree. I see people including myself just laying it around. Most of the time people run too fast as Sonic to see them and just explode. It gives me a big edge in match.
The race issue.. Yeah, like explained 400 times before. It can't be easily fixed without reworkings of stages. (Character specific paths?)
I never find the ring to be useful in 90% of situations I'm in, I usually find that I use it mostly in bases.
Now you might find Grenade has the same issue, I disagree. I see people including myself just laying it around. Most of the time people run too fast as Sonic to see them and just explode. It gives me a big edge in match.
The race issue.. Yeah, like explained 400 times before. It can't be easily fixed without reworkings of stages. (Character specific paths?)
You'd think so, huh? And yet... In all the netgames I've played, only ONCE have I been shot off of one, and that was another Tails flying up by me that got me.
Kopper
Does not use Sonic.
The definition of underpowered does not mean a low skill cellar, it means a low skill ceiling. You're describing the former.
When did I say that? I just said Knuckles is the beginner's character due to his increased fire rate, but he's just as hard to master as the other two.
Not everyone can run Crysis on maximum settings, even nowadays. Just like not everyone can play Tails well *coughyou* or Sonic too well *coughme*
Most people use Sonic. That means Sonic is likely to win. Sonic is also fast, so he's likely to win races (Tails is also fast strafeflying, so poor Knuckles gets the crap job there.)
If 70% of players run around with Sonic, and 70% of winners are Sonic, what have you proven? That the other two are underused. Plus, you get more points in CTF flagrunning effectively then defending well, so that's more points to someone who helped the team equally as well. I know you aren't saying they're equal and different, but it's only natural to think your favourite character is the best, especially when there is no best.
I would probably make Sonic look like a lumbering brute, because I'm used to Tails. I'll probably not utilize Knuckles' gliding too well, because I'm used to Tails.
Likewise, you wouldn't use (strafe)flying, gliding, or aerial bombardment very effectively.
trentdude2
Back from the dead
Well i would like to go back on the tails topic. Anyways i think he should have more abilities than flying.....slowly. Maybe the rings he shoots can have a little bit of splash damage, not as big as the explosion ring of course. And i think he should be able to fly a little faster because if i can hit an expert tails player out of the air five times in a row with just a normal ring theres a major disadvantage.
PHCC
Too fast for you to see me.
trentdude2 said:
Not really, strafe-fly get rid of that, but strafe-flying cost you one of your eyes(you have to choose which side you'll see, left of right).And after bothering myself on how to control tails properly, I discovered that Tails is really underpowered in match, because he doesn't have enough space(in the majority of the match maps) to strafe-fly properly, but I made Tails a god in meadow match, this map have a good space to strafe-fly properly, and some others maps, like Sapphire Falls, are good to strafe-fly too. Aside from that, Tails isn't underpowered in others gametypes(except Race). I'm starting to wonder if Knuckles isn't the real underpowered character in this game, he usually loses in CTF and Race, and his only advantage in match is the trick with the gliding ability and the faster fire-rate, and Knuckles usually loses in match too.
I think I'm going to change of character and start to be a Tails player. =P
Kopper
Does not use Sonic.
Overreliance on one tactic (in this case, strafeflying) will obviously make anyone seem underpowered. If you really wanna play like Sonic that badly, play as Sonic.
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