What ? Is Egg Rock Zone too hard for you ? Well...

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I respect your opinion, no matter how rude it may be.
Oh sorry, i didn't intend for that to be rude, however such it may have been.
I apologize if feelings were hurt, in my mind, that was a completely rational, non emotionally supported and logical statement.
I suppose not.
 
As I stated earlier in the thread, if you want something changed, you need to be specific. Telling us "bottomless pits" and "gimmick rooms" are bad isn't going to tell us anything, because the whole point of ERZ is to be a giant, scary gauntlet of hazards. However, if you got stuck at a specific place, or find a particular gimmick troublesome, then THAT is helpful information.

While I'm sure many of you probably don't know this, I actually do focus testing of SRB2, and in particular I'm looking for places new players get stuck and/or lost in the stages. This is why I knew that the snailer in the Mega Man room was a problem before release, and is also the reason for basically every change you see in GFZ1. A significant part of the goal of 2.1 was to smooth out our difficulty curve, and considering some of my more experienced gamer testers managed to get all the way to ERZ3 without getting a Game Over, I'd say that we've gone a long way towards that goal. This isn't to say it's perfect, and while I only have a few inexperienced players to test each SRB2 version with, there are thousands of you playing the game. This is why specific, tangible feedback is helpful. Stating "I found the Snailer in the Mega Man room in ERZ2 to be too difficult as Sonic and lost 20 lives there" is helpful feedback because it provides a specific point in the stage we can work on changing, either by removing the Snailer or possibly changing the level architecture if for some reason we wanted to keep the hazard while toning down the difficulty level. Also be sure to state things like the character you were playing as when you experienced the difficulty, as different characters have different choke points.

However, all I'm hearing in this thread is the same two things over and over again "wahh ERZ is too hard" and "wahh you guys are pussies". Neither of those statements is in any way helpful to us, and if you want your thread taken seriously, then providing specifics like I stated earlier in the thread is the only way you can actually be heard by the developers. Otherwise I'll just lock the thread.
 
Oh sorry, i didn't intend for that to be rude, however such it may have been.
I apologize if feelings were hurt, in my mind, that was a completely rational, non emotionally supported and logical statement.
I suppose not.

No no, it's fine.

Anyway, scratch the idea of a playthrough. My recorder hates ERZ. The lag keeps getting me.

But, I can list things I notice as I go through:

ERZ1
-At the part with the gravity conveyer belts, that little spiky turtle can be a real pain, and it can surprise you. Once it actually got onto the conveyer with me and shoved me off.
-The room with the red crushers on the floor and ceiling, I don't think they should activate when you jump between them, just step on that area. I also noticed it's easy to stumble into the next crusher after avoiding one.

That's all I've got so far.
 
As I stated earlier in the thread, if you want something changed, you need to be specific. Telling us "bottomless pits" and "gimmick rooms" are bad isn't going to tell us anything, because the whole point of ERZ is to be a giant, scary gauntlet of hazards. However, if you got stuck at a specific place, or find a particular gimmick troublesome, then THAT is helpful information.

While I'm sure many of you probably don't know this, I actually do focus testing of SRB2, and in particular I'm looking for places new players get stuck and/or lost in the stages. This is why I knew that the snailer in the Mega Man room was a problem before release, and is also the reason for basically every change you see in GFZ1. A significant part of the goal of 2.1 was to smooth out our difficulty curve, and considering some of my more experienced gamer testers managed to get all the way to ERZ3 without getting a Game Over, I'd say that we've gone a long way towards that goal. This isn't to say it's perfect, and while I only have a few inexperienced players to test each SRB2 version with, there are thousands of you playing the game. This is why specific, tangible feedback is helpful. Stating "I found the Snailer in the Mega Man room in ERZ2 to be too difficult as Sonic and lost 20 lives there" is helpful feedback because it provides a specific point in the stage we can work on changing, either by removing the Snailer or possibly changing the level architecture if for some reason we wanted to keep the hazard while toning down the difficulty level. Also be sure to state things like the character you were playing as when you experienced the difficulty, as different characters have different choke points.

However, all I'm hearing in this thread is the same two things over and over again "wahh ERZ is too hard" and "wahh you guys are pussies". Neither of those statements is in any way helpful to us, and if you want your thread taken seriously, then providing specifics like I stated earlier in the thread is the only way you can actually be heard by the developers. Otherwise I'll just lock the thread.

You don't fear the result of the lack of margin for error with so much instant death ?

I have one mild example : in ERZ Act 2 there is a room where, in order to continue you have to activate walk on a button to open a door. In order to do that you have to enter a platforming room which guides you to the switch with blue platforms. Why are the platforms so tight, forcing you to slow down in fear of falling ? What is the point of this tightness there ? Won't someone fall if he used a thok accidentally or purposefully on the upper blue platform wich appears safe with the 3D camera, wheareas it is actually not ? Or if he just slipped a little bit ?
What does the game/player gain from this trick in this room ?


If you want a list of, I say, not impossible stuff (there aren't much), but unfair, pointless stuff, then I guess I will make another slow playthrough in order to remember them all.

But I can't take all the routes nor make a video so my list may be understating.


I still want to know about your game designing philosophy (general idea) though. Neither of us is answering the other at this, and this is important.
 
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You don't fear the result of the lack of margin for error with so much instant death ?

I have one mild example : in ERZ Act 2 there is a room where, in order to continue you have to activate walk on a button to open a door. In order to do that you have to enter a platforming room which guides ou to the switch with blue platforms. Why are the platforms so tight, forcing you to slow down in fear of falling ? What is the point of this tightness there ? Won't someone fall if he used a thok accidentally or purposefully on the upper blue platform wich appears safe with the 3D camera, wheareas it is actually not ?
What does the game/player gain from this trick in this room ?
I assume you're talking about the elevator shaft you need to enter to power the elevator, which is moderately cramped. This is on purpose, and the expected reaction of the player is to slow down. This isn't a "trick", as it's really clearly shown to the player from the moment they look into the room that you have to be very careful in there. There are tiny platforms that are clearly tiny from the very start, so I don't see how anyone would feel tricked if they jumped up to the next platform and thokked off, since it was shown from the start that the room was something to be careful in.

SRB2, at the core, is a momentum-based platformer. We have segments of platforming, and those segments become rather difficult in ERZ with a higher penalty for failure. If you're expecting SRB2 to act like modern Sonic and let you dash through everything without worry, ERZ is going to be a rather rude awakening, as ERZ is designed like Scrap Brain from Sonic 1, where going fast is a very dangerous proposition.
 
I assume you're talking about the elevator shaft you need to enter to power the elevator, which is moderately cramped. This is on purpose, and the expected reaction of the player is to slow down. This isn't a "trick", as it's really clearly shown to the player from the moment they look into the room that you have to be very careful in there. There are tiny platforms that are clearly tiny from the very start, so I don't see how anyone would feel tricked if they jumped up to the next platform and thokked off, since it was shown from the start that the room was something to be careful in.

SRB2, at the core, is a momentum-based platformer. We have segments of platforming, and those segments become rather difficult in ERZ with a higher penalty for failure. If you're expecting SRB2 to act like modern Sonic and let you dash through everything without worry, ERZ is going to be a rather rude awakening, as ERZ is designed like Scrap Brain from Sonic 1, where going fast is a very dangerous proposition.

I don't like modern Sonic games, I thought my reference to classic ones were clear, from my past posts. I even cited Sonic 1 Scrap Brain Zone which I think was more successful than Egg Rock Zone. Please read my last wall of text the previous page.
Yeah I think maybe the concentration of death punishing gimmicks is too much.

Thanks for the answer, though.
 
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Oookay.

Here's the problem as I see it.

Any SRB2 control scheme that doesn't use strafe keys is utter garbage. Arrow turning is too slow for any character to be able to reasonably dodge oncoming projectiles, and analog is still barely practical even with heavily customized setups designed for it. Now that many of SRB2's bosses and levels are being designed with WASD in mind, those who use it are feeling legitimately challenged and those who aren't are shit out of luck.

This wouldn't be so bad if most players didn't come into SRB2 not knowing that this game has to played with FPS controls for the player to be decently competent at whatever he's doing.

I really don't think anyone would even be complaining about the GFZ1 boss if everyone was able to look at the boss and sidestep away from lasers at the same time. That being said though, some things in this game really are bullshit. For instance, how is the current level of risk the player has to take each time he wants to hit the sea egg considered reasonable? How is anyone supposed to know that there's a chain in the stadium stands that the player can use to his advantage? Why is CEZ2 long as fuck and almost completely devoid of sidepaths for players having difficulty with the challenge segment gimmicks? How much thought did you put into the snailer positionings for ERZ1 relative to how difficult those sections already were?
 
Oookay.

Here's the problem as I see it.

Any SRB2 control scheme that doesn't use strafe keys is utter garbage. Arrow turning is too slow for any character to be able to reasonably dodge oncoming projectiles, and analog is still barely practical even with heavily customized setups designed for it. Now that many of SRB2's bosses and levels are being designed with WASD in mind, those who use it are feeling legitimately challenged and those who aren't are shit out of luck.

This wouldn't be so bad if most players didn't come into SRB2 not knowing that this game has to played with FPS controls for the player to be decently competent at whatever he's doing.

I really don't think anyone would even be complaining about the GFZ1 boss if everyone was able to look at the boss and sidestep away from lasers at the same time. That being said though, some things in this game really are bullshit. For instance, how is the current level of risk the player has to take each time he wants to hit the sea egg considered reasonable? How is anyone supposed to know that there's a chain in the stadium stands that the player can use to his advantage? Why is CEZ2 long as fuck and almost completely devoid of sidepaths for players having difficulty with the challenge segment gimmicks? How much thought did you put into the snailer positionings for ERZ1 relative to how difficult those sections already were?

I agree with all of this. I didn't even know you HAD to use strafe until recently, because the game doesn't bother to tell you that.
 
You do realize that some people have different skill levels right?

Yes, but that skill level barrier can be broken through practice. Practice does not just mean trying again and again. Practice is questioning why you are dying. What are you doing wrong? What can you improve? What are other players doing that you aren't? Did you make it further than you did last time? Why? What did you change? What are your gameplay strengths? Your weaknesses? Practice involves admitting that you are lacking and then strengthening your weaknesses. It sounds a bit ridiculous to criticize a work by saying that "different people have different skill levels". The point is to improve one's own skills. Just like learning an instrument, SRB2 is a game which requires effort and practice on the part of the player. For some people, that kind of practice can be fun. If it's not for you, then maybe this is not your kind of game.

Strafing is ridiculous and has no point outside of Match.

Strafing is extremely useful. It's another type of movement. Essentially, it is another tool at your disposal. If you find it useless it's only because you haven't figured out how to use it to your advantage.
 
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The only complaint I have with ERZ is in act 1: At the start of the left path, you're instantly greeted by probably the toughest challenge in the entire act, and punishment is death. Right away. Maybe change it so instead of having the crushing platforms over a bottomless pit, put them over a spike pit or some sort of harmful floor instead. That way you're not brutally murdered within the first ten seconds. Of course, if you fail to react to the platform and its ceiling slowly squishing you, then you're dead. That's just your fault, plain and simple.

*takes a breath of air* ERZ act 1's beginning is fairly easy if you know the limits of a character and probability of squeezing through laser beams, crushing platforms, and without falling to your doom and spin-dashing to the right corner of the room, you are good :D
 
Now that many of SRB2's bosses and levels are being designed with WASD in mind, those who use it are feeling legitimately challenged and those who aren't are shit out of luck.

This wouldn't be so bad if most players didn't come into SRB2 not knowing that this game has to played with FPS controls for the player to be decently competent at whatever he's doing.

I absolutely agree that using the strafe keys are necessary for having good control over your character in SRB2. I recently tried playing through a level paying close attention to what buttons I was pressing, and I was kind of shocked by how often I used them. I knew, of course, that I used them all the time, but I didn't know I was using them constantly, at every second, always making minor corrections to jumps or thoks or even when I'm running in a straight line. I tried playing without using strafe, and I suddenly felt hugely handicapped.

But using WASD or FPS controls? Nah, that's not true. I use keyboard-only controls (very close to the defaults) and I have no problems. I find that a surprisingly number of people are put off by the idea of playing a platformer with WASD+mouse FPS-controls. I don't know why people think that way, but I've heard it from enough people that I've started encouraging keyboard-only controls instead...
 
As I stated earlier in the thread, if you want something changed, you need to be specific. Telling us "bottomless pits" and "gimmick rooms" are bad isn't going to tell us anything, because the whole point of ERZ is to be a giant, scary gauntlet of hazards. However, if you got stuck at a specific place, or find a particular gimmick troublesome, then THAT is helpful information.

Here's my advice.

Make it clearer that the player should really be using WASD, make the default controls better suit that experience. Or fix analog.

For DSZ3: Put a couple of platforms or something near the middle so the player doesn't have to take huge risks launching himself toward Eggman every time.

For CEZ2: Instead of forcing the players to retry a section endlessly, create alternate paths for less experienced players. Your zone has plenty of content already, you can afford to compress it in a way that reduces playtime.

For CEZ3: At the start of the pinch phase, add a line of rings indicating where the player is supposed to go next.

For ERZ1: Get the snailer out of spots that are already difficult without it, and keep it in spots that are otherwise fairly empty. Add spikes to the left crusher room in the beginning, remove the death pit. Optionally, add a lone crusher right before that section so the player can test it in a controlled environment before rushing into the rest of them.

While I'm sure many of you probably don't know this, I actually do focus testing of SRB2, and in particular I'm looking for places new players get stuck and/or lost in the stages. This is why I knew that the snailer in the Mega Man room was a problem before release, and is also the reason for basically every change you see in GFZ1. A significant part of the goal of 2.1 was to smooth out our difficulty curve, and considering some of my more experienced gamer testers managed to get all the way to ERZ3 without getting a Game Over, I'd say that we've gone a long way towards that goal. This isn't to say it's perfect, and while I only have a few inexperienced players to test each SRB2 version with, there are thousands of you playing the game. This is why specific, tangible feedback is helpful. Stating "I found the Snailer in the Mega Man room in ERZ2 to be too difficult as Sonic and lost 20 lives there" is helpful feedback because it provides a specific point in the stage we can work on changing, either by removing the Snailer or possibly changing the level architecture if for some reason we wanted to keep the hazard while toning down the difficulty level. Also be sure to state things like the character you were playing as when you experienced the difficulty, as different characters have different choke points.

Your current difficulty curve (on a 10 scale):

GFZ: 1
THZ: 2
DSZ: 3
CEZ: 5 (difficulty isn't the problem, length and linearity is)
ACZ: 5
RVZ: 6
ERZ: 10

ERZ's problem is not only the zone transition, but the incredibly poor introduction of the left crusher room, which not only requires precision on relatively small platforms with crushers above them, but does so over a death pit, with a snailer above the one safe platform. How you go from that sort of difficulty to the decidedly mild laser room is beyond me. ERZ2 is actually fine outside of a couple small instances, and I don't think there's any problems with ERZ3 (although it's not entirely intuitive at first what the count-down actually means... I thought the last stretch was no-oxygen the first time I played it.)
 
Stating "I found the Snailer in the Mega Man room in ERZ2 to be too difficult as Sonic and lost 20 lives there" is helpful feedback because it provides a specific point in the stage we can work on changing, either by removing the Snailer or possibly changing the level architecture if for some reason we wanted to keep the hazard while toning down the difficulty level.
There should never be a situation where a Snailer can see you from the other end of a long hallway and shoot several bullets in your direction before you can even see it; it's cheap and unfair. ERZ2 suddenly does this in droves for some reason, the blatant cases being the aforementioned Mega Man room, the horseshoe platform in the lava room, and the long mesh walkway before the cargo bay. This is especially aggravating now that players are encouraged to clear the stage with a load of rings; these pitfalls in stage design are under the spotlight of Record Attack for all to see, experience and agonize over.
 
I absolutely agree that using the strafe keys are necessary for having good control over your character in SRB2. I recently tried playing through a level paying close attention to what buttons I was pressing, and I was kind of shocked by how often I used them. I knew, of course, that I used them all the time, but I didn't know I was using them constantly, at every second, always making minor corrections to jumps or thoks or even when I'm running in a straight line. I tried playing without using strafe, and I suddenly felt hugely handicapped.

But using WASD or FPS controls? Nah, that's not true. I use keyboard-only controls (very close to the defaults) and I have no problems. I find that a surprisingly number of people are put off by the idea of playing a platformer with WASD+mouse FPS-controls. I don't know why people think that way, but I've heard it from enough people that I've started encouraging keyboard-only controls instead...

Strafe is like omni-important, but you can probably get away with whatever your setup is so long as you have that. I use WASD and mouse, where jump is set to right click and spindash is set to left.
 
Any SRB2 control scheme that doesn't use strafe keys is utter garbage.

I play without strafe keys. I'm sure I'm in the minority when it comes to senior SRB2ers. I can clear the whole game (as Sonic at least) without strafing. Would I be a lot better WITH strafe? Probably. But at least when I was developing SRB2, I never intended strafe to be something required in the single player campaign.
 
That's a problem then, because right now I'd say WASD is easily the best way to play SRB2, and many of the elements in SRB2 are being balanced in that fashion. Something should have been done to bring the different control methods in line with each other years ago.
 
How would you do that? Some control schemes are just superior to others. This is why it's so hard to have cross-platform play between consoles and PCs with FPSes. It's not that there's a technical problem doing it, but controllers are just strictly inferior to keyboard and mouse for controlling them, and PC players would just have an inherent advantage.
 
How would you do that? Some control schemes are just superior to others. This is why it's so hard to have cross-platform play between consoles and PCs with FPSes. It's not that there's a technical problem doing it, but controllers are just strictly inferior to keyboard and mouse for controlling them, and PC players would just have an inherent advantage.
You don't need to make them perfectly equal to each other, you just need to make the choice not so ridiculously lopsided. Adding a key input that changes the turn keys to strafe keys when held will allow non-mouse users to have some of that freedom even it's not as good as what you can do with FPS setups.
 
Okay here is what I gathered so far. Keep in mind we are thinking of first time below average player using Sonic :

ACT 1
I played through the left path, so I don't know much about the right path (yet).

_ Left path 1rst room : Snail shooting in a crushing/pit falling room. Too much.
_ Left path : I suggest the first introduction of the blue spiked badnik not being so much near the upside down convoyor belt room. Or at least place the Armageddon shield next to it because it is not visible enough.
_ Left path lava room : Snail imparing your platforming even when you DO reach the air uplifting green platform (not instant death unless you have no ring)

ACT 2
I played through the right path for now. (after the first checkpoint)


_ Auto bullet shooting room with snails and death pits. You have to slow down but at the same time you have to speed up. That's the feeling I got while playing here the first times.
_ I replayed the blue plaftorm room : the upper square blue platform has a death pit hole from behind/on it, and you CAN'T see it from the get go. (stupid death)
_ Further : a white conveyor belt with a crusher, two death pits, and an annoying snail + 2 red moving up and down lasers. The conveyor belt and snails force you to react fast, while the lasers force you to slow down (the first times) because of the death pit threat.
_You already know about the Megaman blocks room. The snail aside people will still die here... It can't be improved much more than removing the snail.
_Near the end of Act 2 there's many gimmick one after the others. They are balanced by the fact that they're not simultaneous, but the conveyor belt leads to a bottom less pit where 3 red lasers are moving up and down. It is too much at once just after those crushing gimmicks just before.

The outerspace sections were improved so I guess they don't need any further tweeking. I still have the strange feeling it will frustate someone, but I don't feel it anymore myself.

It's been years since I tried right path in Act 1 and left path in Act 2 and actually progressing. I will have to see them too.


ACT 3
In my opinion the worst. But in the strangest ways possible. Keep also in mind that the final timer is also a dying gimmick (which you must try to prevent).

_Second room : there does not need conveyor belts to serve as platfom as you are jumping to stay ahead of Metal Sonic. It is not hard when you memorized it (dying) or slow down... but you are racing.
_The first red lasers are okay because they are placed in a way that there are not hard to not touch but their placement near death pit is disrupting when you are just going fast. Many people will feel forced to slow down or get hit. Even if getting hit does not make you fall (thanksfully). Slowing down is inevitable.
_I don't get the platforming room where you have to climb 3 platforms to turn before Metal Sonic arrive and make a hole in the spikes. Is it actually trying to slow you down when you are ahead ? Letting Metal Sonic make a hole sound more seducing and effective. Plain Bad room.
_The 2 slow large red lasers... Should be much less large, you will run into them too easily. Slow down again, or get hit.
_The white conveyor belt room with 3 red lasers moving up and down. You won't believe just how many time you can actually be touched by them if you try to jump over them, or just run mindlessly. It just forces you to slow down.
_The reverse square platform room, above bottomless pit is not playable at full speed (new player remember). It is easy if you slow down, but again, this is a race.
_A reverse gravity hallway of spikes ? Like a jumping obstacle course where you have to jump over multiples lines of spike while running/thoking perfectly one after the other ? Really, it would be a fine room if it wasn't a race.


The 3rd act is unbelivable. I laugh so hard when I see. It is so well balanced to the point where it is bland in itself, if Metal Sonic doesn't exist. Clean, linear, easy, you say it. But at the same time it is so well designed to make you lose on purpose it doesn't even try to hide it. Considering that Metal Sonic arriving at the goal before you is a defeat (death) everything in here becomes hell, because everything is build around pure memorisation. If you play slowly without ever trying to win, you WILL learn the layout of this level, and after forgiving to Metal Sonic many lives (that not everyone will have by the way), you can outspeed him and beat him to the race.

It is shamefully, laughably alien. ERZ Act 3 is like the exact reverse of the difficulty of the entire ERZ previously, while still making it next to impossible to not die.
Incredible. I am in awe before such craziness it's like I see in the 4th dimension.
The level is actually damn fine layout-wise, while being very mean in practice.
Act 3 will catch off gard pretty much everyone. Everyone except for players that are used to the process of speedrunning and don't mind losing the first times.

Did I mentioned how pretty the Game Over screen is ? And how loved and lovable you feel when you see once again you save at Egg Rock, after losing dozens of lives (if you had so many) in ERZ Act 3 ?

Act 3 is the black sheep. It will punish the players who try the hardest to not lose, without understanding its process of Trial and error. Trial and Error punished by death, and return back to Act 1.

Act 3 is so alien, I actually now think the only thing it does really need is the game saving just right there as if it was a new zone. If you do that, it will be the equivalent of having infinite lives, and the Act will be truly playable.
Granted it is a stupid Try and Die level in it's entirety because of the race, but it his main flaw. I would also suggest making the 5th room (where Metal Sonic breaks a blocking line of spikes) not encouraging for the player to just let Metal Sonic outrun you, even when you painfully managed to outrun him before hand.

Act 3 is hard in a ridiculous way : it is the very proof ERZ is nothing more than die and memorize. Awful in an awkward, unsettling way. Built to slow you down and at the same time to encourage you to go faster, this act is full of contradictions.
This must be the result of the SRB2 team trying new concept.

After seing ERZ Act 3 carefully, I cannot help but feel pity foor the stage while at the same time knowing it is the hardest of all, because of its novelty (no racing introduced before), because of its placement (at the end of the deadful ERZ Act 2 it is just stretching the pain), and because when you will lose on it, back to ERZ Act 1 all over again.


You guys should rethink your concept entirely. Egg Rock Act 3 WILL absolutely destroy any newcomer, especially those that were not aware of it before hand, and play to not lose. It is so awful for all the wrong reasons to the point where it is almost genius. I am in awe.

And I cannot comment on the Metal Sonic boss fight itself, but I heard it is hard to play correctly, without tanking hit. On that I just say maybe make the good strategies to use against him be more evident and not too demanding. also the border of the stage are electrified, but to be honest I feel like this is in the "manageable" category of things, so... meh.

Sometimes I may go on the opposite routes of my usual run to see how thing are there.
 
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