[Open Assets] [Thokker] Magma Mayhem
- Thread starter Blitz-T
- Start date
This content may be freely modified and/or maintained by anyone.
- Status
Alright, we had a test netgame playing this. Let me preface this by saying I liked the aesthetics. Unfortunately, there were a few things we need to discuss about the map.
- As far as overall gameplay goes, the slopes should be less steep, especially the ones to get the ball from the center to the bases. Getting the ball around with Knuckles or Tails is a bit of a pain.
- The central barrier should be made unclimbable.
- It was never officially stated, but thokkerballs must have either red and blue in equal proportions or none of the two colors. The ball in this map is blood orange, which is borderline. Perhaps have it made more yellowy-orange?
- Knuckles can get into the scenery from this spot.
- The red team base highlights are very, very close in colour to the natural enviornment. It's okay to have a predominantly coloured map if the bases are visually distinct, but only the blue base stands out of the two in this map. Perhaps copy the textures and flats used for the red team, and brightened them up as custom textures/flats to be more pinky-red than dark red so the red team highlight is as comparitively bright as the blue team's?
Last edited:
Ah ok. Sorry about that. I'll do what I can to make the slopes leading into the team bases less steep. All I'll say for this is there are only two slopes of which I'd like to keep the same if this doesn't quite work out for them:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhoj38c9gufk21k/srb20016.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4cm92dpw76tigkv/srb20017.png?dl=0
The reason being is that I'd like for Sonic players to have access to both these areas fairly quickly, regardless of whether they're on the offence or defence, instead of always having to go the long way(where it would probably be too late for them to do anything before someone else gets the ball moving.) That way, it's at least fair game for all the characters...I think? Of course, I could have those cliffs be at jump height for Sonic, but c'mon. Where's the fun in that heheh. I personally enjoy using momentum to reach places Sonic wouldn't be able to normally. Am I the only one?
Whoops, how'd I forget that? My bad. That'll be fixed in the next update.
Ok, now this is interesting to me. I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant here(and I do apologize), because I can't quite make sense of this. If you value your sanity, please just skip this spoiler:
By any chance does one the reasons have to do with also catering for players who are colourblind? If so, then that begs these questions; why is there a crosshair on the ball whenever you're looking in the general direction that it's located in(of which, overlaps anything that's in the way, including the player.) and why is there a radar for it on the bottom right? Colourblind or not, there are already two things in the game that in general, keep tabs of not only where the ball is, but what it looks like. All you have to do is follow the cues. Now I can't say for sure how much the shades of the ball will blend with the level from the perspective of a colourblind player, but surely in this case, the difference in the graphics would be enough for them to make the distinction between floors, walls and the ball(should they not be able to see the crosshair.):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g2y5hantevlhz3c/Black and white.png?dl=0
While I can't really speak from experience, at least this gives me a rough idea of what the map would probably look like to a colourblind player. Also, note this screenshot is based on the current public version of the map(Meaning the ball isn't even fullbright yet, but still, it looks fairly visible.)
Even then, bear in mind that naturally during a game, the ball's gonna be moving (and moving objects are pretty hard to miss, especially when you have a crosshair over it). In this particular case, the only drastically active thing in the map is the lava from the small volcanoes beside the goals.(of which only moves in a fixed up and down direction)
The ball however would be way more dynamic in movement, so it would still be difficult to miss.
Does another reason have something to do with the team colours? I don't really think that matters, because again, the radar itself tells you what the ball will look like before kick-off. Regardless of colour(or lack thereof even), there's no confusion to be had,
and even if there somehow managed to be some sort of confusion between team colours and the ball, it would only ever happen on a fresh playthrough. After that, it's not really a problem.
Don't get me wrong though. Any kind of first-time confusion/mix-up is still a problem(and I'm sorry about that if that's the case here), but in this case, it's not really a big one, because the player practically fixes the problem themself just by experiencing it. It's simple player adaptation.
The only time where this may present itself as a slightly consistent issue to one person is if they decide not to play for a while and then come back. However in this case, if they actually forgot that the ball was confusing because of the colour and get confused again, then clearly it was never that big of an issue to begin with, because if it was, they would've remembered. Not to mention it would only take a short moment for that confusion to go away.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g2y5hantevlhz3c/Black and white.png?dl=0
While I can't really speak from experience, at least this gives me a rough idea of what the map would probably look like to a colourblind player. Also, note this screenshot is based on the current public version of the map(Meaning the ball isn't even fullbright yet, but still, it looks fairly visible.)
Even then, bear in mind that naturally during a game, the ball's gonna be moving (and moving objects are pretty hard to miss, especially when you have a crosshair over it). In this particular case, the only drastically active thing in the map is the lava from the small volcanoes beside the goals.(of which only moves in a fixed up and down direction)
The ball however would be way more dynamic in movement, so it would still be difficult to miss.
Does another reason have something to do with the team colours? I don't really think that matters, because again, the radar itself tells you what the ball will look like before kick-off. Regardless of colour(or lack thereof even), there's no confusion to be had,
and even if there somehow managed to be some sort of confusion between team colours and the ball, it would only ever happen on a fresh playthrough. After that, it's not really a problem.
Don't get me wrong though. Any kind of first-time confusion/mix-up is still a problem(and I'm sorry about that if that's the case here), but in this case, it's not really a big one, because the player practically fixes the problem themself just by experiencing it. It's simple player adaptation.
The only time where this may present itself as a slightly consistent issue to one person is if they decide not to play for a while and then come back. However in this case, if they actually forgot that the ball was confusing because of the colour and get confused again, then clearly it was never that big of an issue to begin with, because if it was, they would've remembered. Not to mention it would only take a short moment for that confusion to go away.
Hmm, now that I think about it, if all that I said ends up being pointless and invalid, maybe the fullbright ball would work out(since this current one is kinda dark)? I got screenshots of it here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sh4axoq1ap44nae/srb20019.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/whpqtkj82uof0r7/srb20020.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t01i5f31zpng6vx/srb20022.png?dl=0
If it's still not good enough(and all my dumb ramblings are just that; plain dumb), then I'm sorry if you did read through all that dribble, and I'll do what I can to edit the shades of the ball. No problem.
D'oh, I goofed up again. That shall be fixed.
I like the sound of that. Consider it done heheh. Thanks!
Appreciate the feedback. It might not seem that way because of my dumb rant, but I do. =3
The opposite sides of those examples probably need to be flattened, but keeping those ones as trick jumps to get over quickly is fun and I wholeheartedly encourage it.
The issue with the ball specifically is that it's one of (n+1) objects moving around at a frantic pace, where n is the number of players. At those high speeds, distinguishing it from a player is the most important thing. It's not much to do with colourblindness (the boat sailed on SRB2 being colorblind appropriate quite a while ago, I'm afraid - maybe we can support it with different PLAYPALs at a future date, but right now...) or with blending into the level, since you can always FIND the ball - but there might be a player close by that confuses you. THAT'S the issue. So yeah, just make the red on the ball more yellowy-orange and things will be fine.
No worries, happy to help!
The issue with the ball specifically is that it's one of (n+1) objects moving around at a frantic pace, where n is the number of players. At those high speeds, distinguishing it from a player is the most important thing. It's not much to do with colourblindness (the boat sailed on SRB2 being colorblind appropriate quite a while ago, I'm afraid - maybe we can support it with different PLAYPALs at a future date, but right now...) or with blending into the level, since you can always FIND the ball - but there might be a player close by that confuses you. THAT'S the issue. So yeah, just make the red on the ball more yellowy-orange and things will be fine.
No worries, happy to help!
You know what? No...NO! I'm sorry, but my last post(Of which I've deleted) was pure nonsense. It was a lie to simply end the discussion before it may've potentially got out of hand. That and I didn't wanna risk looking like a stubborn fool(If I don't already. Which I probably do now that I'm not only bringing this back up, but I made a dumb lie in the first place. -.-).
Sorry, but I gotta be honest now. Once again, even with the reason you've provided, it still doesn't completely add up. Here's why(Incoming ramblings of a lunatic):
Look, all I'm really saying is that to an extent, what you've said about the ball blending with the characters in terms of motion and colour makes sense(especially in this public version of the map), but what I'm saying is that this standard just doesn't seem absolute to me. Not just in the case of what I have planned, but in general.(For the reasons I've stated)
Sorry, but I gotta be honest now. Once again, even with the reason you've provided, it still doesn't completely add up. Here's why(Incoming ramblings of a lunatic):
The ball and the players can be moving around as drastic as you want, but both their movement patterns are predictable.
*The ball because when it's in motion, it's usually airborne, constantly bouncing off surfaces, and as it bounces along the ground, it's horizontal movement progressively gets slower to the point where it becomes easier for players to control(Unless it bounces off a slope at certain angles, based on the ball's trajectory).
*The players because in a practical game, they will always be moving in accordance to where the ball is. There are only two main movement patterns of which to employ, in terms of the ball interaction. Offence and defence.
Offence is usually just players following the ball; trying to keep it on track with the opposition's goal, while defence is more of intercepting the ball, trying to cease the opposition's progress, and clearing the ball away from their own goal. (So usually, they'd either try to get AHEAD of the ball and anticipate it's movement in order to clear it away, OR simply knock the ball off-course and make it hard for the opposition to progress.)
I get where you're coming from here; in that maintaining focus on the ball up close while there's a lot of players moving around alongside it might be difficult, so where exactly do you guys draw the line on max players?
Think about it; imagine a small map with 32 active players. It'd be complete chaos. This is where the problem can be either the player count(In accordance to overall map size), the ball not being distinct enough, or a mix of both. When there are too many players moving around in a map for you to maintain focus on the ball, how exactly do you determine where the problem really lies?
Could the level just simply be too small for the player count? Does the ball not stand out in any shape or form from the players, in terms of overall appearance? Or do both of these seem to be the case? That's the kind of thing you'd have to truly think about to come to a proper conclusion.
Now here in this case, the ball is going to be fullbright. The players are darker than normal. The level is...Hmm, hard to say actually. Medium? Large maybe? =S Either way, I'm pretty sure focusing on the ball in the midst of action, where there's a balanced amount of players would be a cakewalk, since the main thing you're interacting with will be fairly bright and have a good amount of overall contrast to the dark red players.
Now, as for the character's spin/jump frames; that's usually a dominant red/blue colour. I only mention those frames, as that's the only thing close in shape to the ball, of which I can see where the mix-up may potentially come in. However in this case, you'd probably see the magma ball miles better than you would see the dark red characters, since it's gonna be fullbright(and as a result, have better contrast with the characters).
Even when the ball and players are in motion, you'd pretty much have to either:
*Be behind a wall
*Have way too many active players around the ball
*Be far enough that you can't tell the difference between the ball and players(Which I'll go over)
for you to lose sight of the ball itself.
If you're too far that you can't tell the difference between the ball and a player(even with the crosshair and the difference in brightness assisting you), then you should be moving close enough to where that isn't a problem. Even if you wanna play the rebel and choose not to, why does it matter if you can't make the distinction at that range? You're not even close enough to interact with the ball, so even if there's some slight confusion from a distance, what difference will it make? You may as well just rely on the crosshair if you REALLY wanna keep track of it from that kind of range. On that note, have another screenshot:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vhs20q4drlvm9ri/srb20043.png?dl=0
You can't honestly tell me that from this distance, you can see the red Sonic MILES better than the fullbright lava ball(and the ball doesn't even have the crosshair over it, of which would be of relevance from this distance.). Clearly there's not a problem with distinction between the ball and players, because the ball's way brighter in comparison.
*The ball because when it's in motion, it's usually airborne, constantly bouncing off surfaces, and as it bounces along the ground, it's horizontal movement progressively gets slower to the point where it becomes easier for players to control(Unless it bounces off a slope at certain angles, based on the ball's trajectory).
*The players because in a practical game, they will always be moving in accordance to where the ball is. There are only two main movement patterns of which to employ, in terms of the ball interaction. Offence and defence.
Offence is usually just players following the ball; trying to keep it on track with the opposition's goal, while defence is more of intercepting the ball, trying to cease the opposition's progress, and clearing the ball away from their own goal. (So usually, they'd either try to get AHEAD of the ball and anticipate it's movement in order to clear it away, OR simply knock the ball off-course and make it hard for the opposition to progress.)
I don't think the pace of the game is as fast as you might be implying. Don't get me wrong, it's fairly fast-paced, but not to the point where players can't keep up with it. If that was really the case, wouldn't that be more of a problem to do with the game mechanics or the player count(Which I'm about to go over)?
Ok, now this begs the question; do you guys have official max player caps dependent on the map size in mind at this point?
I get where you're coming from here; in that maintaining focus on the ball up close while there's a lot of players moving around alongside it might be difficult, so where exactly do you guys draw the line on max players?
Think about it; imagine a small map with 32 active players. It'd be complete chaos. This is where the problem can be either the player count(In accordance to overall map size), the ball not being distinct enough, or a mix of both. When there are too many players moving around in a map for you to maintain focus on the ball, how exactly do you determine where the problem really lies?
Could the level just simply be too small for the player count? Does the ball not stand out in any shape or form from the players, in terms of overall appearance? Or do both of these seem to be the case? That's the kind of thing you'd have to truly think about to come to a proper conclusion.
Now here in this case, the ball is going to be fullbright. The players are darker than normal. The level is...Hmm, hard to say actually. Medium? Large maybe? =S Either way, I'm pretty sure focusing on the ball in the midst of action, where there's a balanced amount of players would be a cakewalk, since the main thing you're interacting with will be fairly bright and have a good amount of overall contrast to the dark red players.
How would that happen in this case though? Again, look at the fullbright magma ball sprite again, then look at any of the characters sprites within the level. Are you trying to tell me that between a fullbright lava ball and dark red characters, that it would be incredibly difficult to tell the difference not just up close, but in motion? Considering how dark the map is, if one of those actively moving things are as bright as all hell, it's gonna stand out. The bright yellow outline of the ball(which is very noticeable up close) and the fact that the main colours are fairly mixed on the sprite make all the difference too.( Doesn't help that the public version has a ball that isn't fullbright, and that's my fault really. Even so, there are screenshots of the fullbright ball in my previous post. Regardless of where this discussion goes, the ball is definitely gonna be fullbright in the update, so judge it based on that instead of something that's going to be irrelevant.).
Now, as for the character's spin/jump frames; that's usually a dominant red/blue colour. I only mention those frames, as that's the only thing close in shape to the ball, of which I can see where the mix-up may potentially come in. However in this case, you'd probably see the magma ball miles better than you would see the dark red characters, since it's gonna be fullbright(and as a result, have better contrast with the characters).
Even when the ball and players are in motion, you'd pretty much have to either:
*Be behind a wall
*Have way too many active players around the ball
*Be far enough that you can't tell the difference between the ball and players(Which I'll go over)
for you to lose sight of the ball itself.
If you're too far that you can't tell the difference between the ball and a player(even with the crosshair and the difference in brightness assisting you), then you should be moving close enough to where that isn't a problem. Even if you wanna play the rebel and choose not to, why does it matter if you can't make the distinction at that range? You're not even close enough to interact with the ball, so even if there's some slight confusion from a distance, what difference will it make? You may as well just rely on the crosshair if you REALLY wanna keep track of it from that kind of range. On that note, have another screenshot:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vhs20q4drlvm9ri/srb20043.png?dl=0
You can't honestly tell me that from this distance, you can see the red Sonic MILES better than the fullbright lava ball(and the ball doesn't even have the crosshair over it, of which would be of relevance from this distance.). Clearly there's not a problem with distinction between the ball and players, because the ball's way brighter in comparison.
Look, all I'm really saying is that to an extent, what you've said about the ball blending with the characters in terms of motion and colour makes sense(especially in this public version of the map), but what I'm saying is that this standard just doesn't seem absolute to me. Not just in the case of what I have planned, but in general.(For the reasons I've stated)
sighs.
Make a map where you think this rule wouldn't make sense and we'll have a proper discussion about this. There's no point arguing right when there's no solid evidence to back up your viewpoint; on the other hand, thokker was seriously playtested before release so forgive me if I'm being dismissive.
Make a map where you think this rule wouldn't make sense and we'll have a proper discussion about this. There's no point arguing right when there's no solid evidence to back up your viewpoint; on the other hand, thokker was seriously playtested before release so forgive me if I'm being dismissive.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I've already said that this standard makes sense(to an extent). What I mean by the rule not being absolute is in terms of *exceptions* to the rule and I've already made a case of why what I have planned fits the bill of an exception.
Ok, I've released a version with the fullbright ball so you guys have a chance to test it for yourselves. If it's not any trouble, I'd like for you to keep experimenting with the amount of players you have whenever you're playing the map. Like you said, the pace of the game is pretty fast, so obviously if you have too many things moving around at that kind of pace within a focused area, it becomes a problem. I do apologize about everything else being unchanged for the time being. Version 1.1 is available I guess.
Ok, I've released a version with the fullbright ball so you guys have a chance to test it for yourselves. If it's not any trouble, I'd like for you to keep experimenting with the amount of players you have whenever you're playing the map. Like you said, the pace of the game is pretty fast, so obviously if you have too many things moving around at that kind of pace within a focused area, it becomes a problem. I do apologize about everything else being unchanged for the time being. Version 1.1 is available I guess.
Double post, but Version 1.2 is available. Changes include:
*Slopes were made less steep.
*Goals were made bigger. Given how players still have to kinda work to get the ball in the opposite team's base,
and now that it's easier to knock the ball back into the central area from the bases, there should at least be something to compensate for it.
So here's an attempt to try and balance it out.
*Texture replacement on the red base structures.
*Some visual touch-ups.
*Minor fixes.
*Other stuff.
*Slopes were made less steep.
*Goals were made bigger. Given how players still have to kinda work to get the ball in the opposite team's base,
and now that it's easier to knock the ball back into the central area from the bases, there should at least be something to compensate for it.
So here's an attempt to try and balance it out.
*Texture replacement on the red base structures.
*Some visual touch-ups.
*Minor fixes.
*Other stuff.
- Status