So I'm curious about something regarding 2.2

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toaster said:
This is why I didn't want to mention anything about possible tweaks happening...

Whatever the case, I will say this with certainty: the internal consensus is that thokking into a slope sending you high into the air is undesired behaviour and makes mapping with slopes a nightmare.

I don't suppose you can provide a gif of the current effect? I can't really picture what is happening here.

Ritz said:
Or instead we could just remove Knuckles and Tails since their abilities only enable you to bypass all the platforming that actually makes this game fun.

Someone doesn't remember learning the levels for the first time. Every now and then I try to show a friend this game and they just have a horrible time figuring out the maps. The platforming is only fun once you've figured out what your supposed to do and where your supposed to go. Knux and Tails were great for finding your way around the stage for the first time.
 
Cut Sonic's thok speed when he Uturns with it. ...That's already something that won't outright kill Sonic. ...But considering how everyone else got nerfed...
As for Super Forms, again, at this point of the thread where we're sure it's never gonna happen, I'll just ask if Tails and Knuckles can sell the emeralds on eBay for Sonics across the world.
 
AGZ is all about that maneuver. It can't just cooldown after 1 thok if it means risking the input getting dropped, or having the action behave differently (like if you were to dampen the player's speed with successive thoks).

Neo Aerial Garden Zone also has specific sections dedicated to platforming with Knuckles. Lets also not forget the No-climb flag available to any level designer to give playing Knuckles a more platform-focused experience.

Or instead we could just remove Knuckles and Tails since their abilities only enable you to bypass all the platforming that actually makes this game fun. Balance

Sonic is the model unit and has been for, what, 17 years? Any tweaks need to be made around him.

That central focus on a singular character (out of three playable) is part of what caused this problem in the first place.
 
That central focus on a singular character (out of three playable) is part of what caused this problem in the first place.

I have to agree. I feel like if the three characters are playable, you shouldn't focus on one in particular. It would eventually turn into a sonic fest, and multilayer would be seriously lacking in variety.
 
Edit: eh, what the heck, the comment I was responding to seems to have been deleted.

Eh no worries, Its an easy argument to get sucked into.

Veering back on topic:
IF knuckles and tails were to get a super form, we would want the superform to be more than just super sonic with glide/climb/fly in order to maintain character uniqueness ignoring all balance concerns.

So, what about the character can we improve Other than movespeed?

Well, after giving it some thought faster climbing speed for knuckles would be pretty sweet. Also instead of just autokilling things he runs into he could use his characteristic strength to send badniks flying across the map hurting things they collide with.

while Tails doesn't have anything interesting going on yet, maybe there is something cool that could be done with chaos emeralds powering the Tornado...
 
Sorry I've been absent for a few days, I've been busy with some things, but anyway...

How did this become a thread about character balancing and tweaks again? I started this thread to discuss the possibilities of seeing super forms for Tails and Knuckles being allowed in single player and co-op, not anything else. But just for the record I think the thok is pretty OP and is way to spamable. Now since that's out of the way, lets get back to the topic at hand.

Regarding Mystics post earlier on, I can sort of see where he is coming from when he said that it would make the characters blend together due to the best way to stay super would be to play the game almost the same as Sonic in a way. But since Tails and Knuckles gameplay has the exploration factor mixed in, this can help them find a shit load of rings to help them stay in there super state. Take GFZ2 for an example, there's a small hidden area that has 9 super ring monitors and a armageddon shield; and there are many more rewarding secrets like this in the main game, I just can't remember any of the top of my head at the moment. Secrets like this would keep them super for quite a while longer and would further encourage exploring for other sercets scattered around the level to stay super for even longer, and their boosted abilities like the super glide, super climb, and that giant air boost thing that Tails gets, helps them find these secrets a lot faster and only enhances the point of their gameplay by allowing them to do it a lot faster, which should be a benefit of turning super to begin with.

Another thing is that only giving sonic his super form and not the other two, just makes everyone in co-op netgames only use sonic to truly get the well deserved benefit of collecting the emeralds, which as a result just makes most of the co-op netgames I play almost the same thing: Play as Sonic and only Sonic; Get the emeralds; Kick ass with your overpowered recolour. So by not allowing Tails and Knuckles to enjoy the reward too, it pretty much just encourages everyone to play as Sonic, because let's be honest, we all wanna become super saiyan, especially since we earned it together so I would feel very entitled to have that reward. Even From personal experience I've seen so many Tails/Knuckles players standing there trying to turn super until I tell them the heart breaking news that they can't turn super because of a silly limitation, and they feel left out and cheated as a result. Besides the game really favors Sonic anyway due to the levels being primarily designed for him, and this just makes it even more apparent.

However on a side note: Something I would recommend is removing the jump boost for Super Knuckles, because it allows him to get into paths he shouldn't be able to reach.

I still have many more arguments on why I think that super forms for Tails and Knuckles should be allowed in singleplayer/co-op, but this post is already way to long as it is, and I'm sure that I've almost put you to sleep with this post, so I'll make my leave now.

PS: Sorry if I misspelled anything, it's late and I'm tired.
 
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I know I've voiced my opinion on this issue before, but I'll say it again. At bear minimum we should have Super Knuckles as an alternate option as he did exist in Sonic & Knuckles S3&k, and KiS2, the very Classics the game claims to take inspiration from.
 
Ah, to chime in on this, Mystic said something to the effect of collecting the emeralds as Sonic giving you an additional perk of being able to turn Super.

I think what most people dislike about this is that Sonic just gets an extra thing and Tails and Knuckles get nothing as compensation. Playing as Sonic is just the correct option. If there were an extra thing besides Super for Tails and Knuckles, I don't think anyone would have an issue. The problem is that Sonic just flat out gets more rewards for collecting the emeralds.

At least, this is my take on it.
 
That central focus on a singular character (out of three playable) is part of what caused this problem in the first place.
Sure. Problem: Nerfing Sonic is still focusing on Sonic. I don't think a single person outside of the dev team would object to Knuckles or Tails getting buffs (see also: this thread), but even suggesting regression of a mechanic that's been set in stone for over a decade is a recipe for disaster AS YOU CAN SEE

Someone doesn't remember learning the levels for the first time. Every now and then I try to show a friend this game and they just have a horrible time figuring out the maps. The platforming is only fun once you've figured out what your supposed to do and where your supposed to go. Knux and Tails were great for finding your way around the stage for the first time.
Second part of this statement is tantamount to saying Mario isn't fun until after you've beaten the game, which is blatantly untrue, but nevermind- I suspect most of us don't remember how we struggled to get into this game, and I think that might be part of the problem here. We're saying Sonic is unbalanced without taking into consideration his learning curve, because we've all had a century to master him. The skill ceilings for each character are clearly disproportionate, but if every character is designed to represent a difficulty setting where the effort invested is appropriately rewarded, then what are we supposed to do about that?

Sorry if anyone wants to balk at me going on a tangent, but it seems like a good time to state my philosophy here: I think prioritizing Sonic was the right thing to do when Knuckles' and Tails' abilities are fundamentally at odds with the core appeal of the platforming genre. My understanding is that games are fun when they provide tension. "Tension", the strain of performing under threat of failure, is the basic unit of Fun. Every genre has its own means of generating tension- that "core appeal"- and in the case of the platformer, the agent of tension is gravity. Every decision you make should revolve around counteracting gravity, every jump requires some degree of precision because there are consequences for missing that jump. Higher paths are traditionally more rewarding, both materially and in the player's head, because that vertical ascent makes you more and more susceptible to gravity. Stakes rise, tension rises, fun rises.

Climbing and flying negate gravity effortlessly, thereby negating tension and fun. Flying in Super Mario 64 is the ultimate reward- it's fun, partly because it's liberating to negate the challenge of climbing the mountain, which the player has already experienced before acquiring the wing cap. Flying around that space is only exhilarating because of the context of that initial climb. But here we have two characters that offer that same experience straight off, and we're telling players this is how they should experience these stages first- I think having an easier alternative is totally appropriate for beginners in SRB2's case, but there's still something backwards about it. Knuckles does it right because we have several measures to keep him in check, so while he's a great introductory character at the start, his endgame is actually the hardest by far. Tails isn't sandboxed quite so easily. Anyway, liberation without the struggle is just empty calories, easily mistaken for fun, because exploring that space is still going to be fun to some degree no matter how you're doing it- but it'd be more fun if you weren't cheesing your way past all those jumps that were meticulously crafted for Sonic.

So I can make the case for gliding and climbing not being fun all day, but if there's any way of proving that, I'd ask: How many players that actually have the skill to handle Sonic competently still prefer using Tails or Knuckles? Furiousfox is the only player I knew that might suit that case (he used Sonic sometimes for races, didn't he?). If people bitching about Sonic being overpowered were doing so out of preference for a character's playstyle, and not out of necessity on account of sucking too hard to graduate to Sonic, I'd be a bit more sympathetic. Bottom line, I think Tails and Knuckles are mechanically unsound, and gimping the one character that unquestionably plays well isn't smart. You may not be able to make them more fun, but it wouldn't hurt to make them more powerful, because you're really not making things any worse. Hopefully this post still makes sense to me when it's not 2AM.
 
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Sure. Problem: Nerfing Sonic is still focusing on Sonic. I don't think a single person outside of the dev team would object to Knuckles or Tails getting buffs (see also: this thread), but even suggesting regression of a mechanic that's been set in stone for over a decade is a recipe for disaster AS YOU CAN SEE

As I stated earlier, the Thok was put in the game to compensate for the lack of control in the air in previous versions, if you turned in the air and pressed forward, you would not move in that direction. In some cases, this made the game incredibly hard to beat without using the Thok to change direction in midair. Seeing as the dev team fixed this issue, it no longer seems neccisary. In fact, seems more overpowered because while Tails and Knuckles take a short period of time to adjust their trajectory, while Sonic has the ability to instantly go in any direction he wants and doing so puts him over his max speed, leaving Tails and Knuckles lagging further behind.
 
This sketch of mine is clearly still relevant here.

How did we get to arguing about thok once again anyway? The OP's post was asking about super forms, not character balance in general.
We were talking about how to keep Balance between Super states of each Character, Like for instance Knuckles's Gliding speed shouldn't be that Fast Unless he's Super, And Sonic's Jumpdash shouldn't be That strong unless he's Super .
 
Second part of this statement is tantamount to saying Mario isn't fun until after you've beaten the game, which is blatantly untrue,
I know this is a bit of a tangent, but I don't think this is a fair comparison. Mario stages are pretty simple to navigate. rarely is the answer something other than "go left" the goals are clearly marked and the route is pretty linear. Mario also moves a lot slower and the twitch reactions needed to respond to upcoming challenges is much lower. In 3d games like galaxy the camera often steers you the correct route.

SRB2 captures the feel of the early sonic games and sonic advance games where it was fairly difficult to figure out where and when to jump for the best path. additionally SRB2 inherits a bit of doom's labyrinthine map design I clearly remember struggling to beat GFZ2 back in the day because it was really easy to get turned around and lost.
 
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Brilliant aha

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

If we are trying to keep the game to S3&K as possible, Sonic and Knuckles have super transformation, not tails.
 
As I stated earlier, the Thok was put in the game to compensate for the lack of control in the air in previous versions, if you turned in the air and pressed forward, you would not move in that direction.
What are you talking about? The thok was added in 2000, in one of the very first releases of the game. At that point I don't think anyone had even noticed the mid-air control issues. There was no rationale behind adding the thok other than "Sonic needs a special ability and this is what we came up with".
 
Whatever the outcome of the thok debate, I will say this with certainty: the internal consensus is that thokking into a slope sending you high into the air is undesired behaviour and makes mapping with slopes (especially considering path splits) a nightmare.
This is long beyond relevant at this point, but I'd just like to point out that if the slope is steep enough to be giving you a significant amount of vertical momentum, then then thokking horizontally onto it should be killing most of your speed. So either landing on or running off slopes isn't being handled properly -- probably in part related to SRB2's moon-ass gravity.
 
Like i already said, I suppose decreasing thok strength would solve this slopes related issue (Unless you want to turn it to a Sonic 4 Copy "Slope Physics sucked there" =( .... ) .
 
Ah I just had a great way to put this into words.

You say you don't want to promote doing things just for the sake of the reward, which I don't disagree with. Earning the "reward" should be just as fun getting to do it as it is to do it.

However now that we have Super Sonic, regardless of how fun the path is, not having the "reward" honestly makes me, along with lots of other people here on this board, feel cheated. If Sonic didn't become Super then there wouldn't be much of the issue but the fact that HE does and no one else just kind of feels wrong. I think you should either remove Super or give it to the others in single-player or co-op. It SERIOUSLY hurts nothing by giving them a more powerful form for going out of there way to collect the chaos emeralds.
 
You say you don't want to promote doing things just for the sake of the reward, which I don't disagree with. Earning the "reward" should be just as fun getting to do it as it is to do it.

However now that we have Super Sonic, regardless of how fun the path is, not having the "reward" honestly makes me, along with lots of other people here on this board, feel cheated.

This is exactly what I meant in my first post, and thank you for condensing it down into two sentences and saying it perfectly all at the same time.
 
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