Multiplayer: Match

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Inu, I mean picking up a third one would trigger an obnoxious juggling case of dropping the first, picking up the first and dropping the second, and then picking up the second to get rid of the unwanted third one. Even if you didn't drop them you'd unintentionally pick up the ones on the map occasionally.
 
Ritz, you made some awesome points there that I didn't even realise until now, especially the idea that spreading weapons out across the map kinda spreads the variety thin like a pancake and really watered down the element of figuring out what your opponents are up to.

Even as a regular player at that time, it was hard to memorise the weapons locations and even harder to pick them up--because with all those weapons it's much harder to figure out exactly which ones are worth your time getting, while other players are chaotically picking up stuff for themselves (including your team's flag. =P)

Mystic said:
Instead of weapon combos, though, it makes me wonder if we should restructure things slightly again. Provide only weapons (remove the ammo mechanic) and make those weapons WAY stronger to compensate for the lack of combos. Basically take it in an Unreal Tournament direction with completely overkill weapons that would all be hilariously overpowered in any rational FPS, but because all the weapons are crazy, the whole thing balances out. This could also somewhat handle the issue where it feels so demoralizing to lose everything on hit, since you'd be just one weapon away from effectiveness again.

This I think is a good idea, and I wanna back the idea that OP stuff is actually super-fun to use, it's just making sure that players don't have a frustrating time finding their chance to get them when other players are dominating. If this kind of thing were set up though I think there should be a smaller selection of weapons--and possibly the abandonment of the idea that every level should have every weapon; as Ritz pointed out, it makes it harder to engage directly with other players and know what's happening (which is part of the fun, particularly when you're an experienced player).

If I can add to that, IMO it was always fun waiting for those specific maps that had your favourite weapons; and it also meant that a good opponent wasn't necessarily going to beat you on every map, due to different weapon preferences which can leave you slightly better off (or otherwise).

Mystic said:
In most of the games I played on Tree Ring, the entire outside and upper part of the map could have been removed and the match wouldn't have changed at all. Of all the things in your post, I think Tree Ring and Air Haven are the only things with complete rose-colored glasses at work. I hope you do get to play some rounds on them again to see how bad they really are.

I agree with this--but only because Tree Ring was one of my least favourite maps in 1.09.4's rotation (I know you made it and all, so I hate to be a jerk and criticise, but hear me out). It was because it was a much more enclosed map--there was less open space to see and engage with other players. I had the same issues with it that I had with 2.0 and further 2.1's maps. I wanna make a bold claim: while Tree Ring was regarded was one of the best maps on the MB (IIRC), the regular player community was really different to the MB community, and IIRC that stage wasn't popular there.

Tree Ring had a good spirit though and had some interesting design and spring paths--it's just that the hectic Match gameplay didn't really demand anyone to take advantage of those. Conversely, in Tag/Hide&Seek, it was probably one of the best maps in the rotation.

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Since we're on the subject, I wanna throw in some of my thoughts.

I'm with Ritz on the maps. One of the biggest things that I couldn't adapt to well in 2.0 was the shrinking space, and 2.1 took the cake. I mean I can't lie--the maps do look prettier, and I can totally see the point that including the landmarks might make it easier to remember the map layout, but it was just painful knowing that my control-laggy games were gonna be harder with all the shiny new obstacles to crash into.

And I don't think it was just control lag: with SRB2's acceleration curves and max speed being very broad, having so many smaller obstacles just doesn't seem to tie in well. The gameplay is momentum-based; even if the extra detail helps the visuals and gives the maps more 'cover' (a concept that I never felt SRB2 really had, there were halls and rooms and open areas and they were the cover; to take cover was to run somewhere else, not walk behind a pillar and hide), the smaller obstacles really just felt like more things to crash into, and block me and my opponent's epic hip-sniping skillz.

SRB2 worked for me because it was a simple game that didn't worry too much about the details. It was bright and colourful (2.0 became darker for some reason?), the enemies were cute and fluffy (of the erm metal kind), the players were kinda cute and fluffy, it was the kind of game that I liked because it didn't fall into the trap of the edgy shooters that were so poular at the time. It still had some cute, mildly flawed just-for-fun gimmicks like Christmas Mode, which e.g. made it harder to see your thrown rings, but I'd be darned if I didn't love that thing. It was just more free-flowing, like it was made by people who were okay with just throwing in random ideas sometimes and seeing if they worked.

The simplicity, while flawed in places, just worked in gameplay. Complexity in strategy came from fighting other players, knowing what they were doing, figuring out the best way to slip past them with the flag, etc. It was fun and manageable. When the simplicity was set aside for greater variety, it was worth playing for a while, but everything started to feel more simple-minded. New players were starting to score hits with their bomb rings and whatnot--which, for all I know, was probably a great thing since it implies a reduced difficulty curve--but it felt like something was sacrificed along the way.

Then again, maybe I'm just resistant to change. Don't get me wrong: 2.0 and 2.1 had things going for it. The Scatter Ring was my favourite non-Rail ring type. The speed cap removal in 2.1 is something I wish could have come around when I was still playing the game (for the epic-fast speed boots!). Twisted Terminal and Clockwork Towers were great stages (probably an unpopular opinion re: Twisted Terminal). Rail rings were less map-dominating. Grenades were fun in 2.0 'cause you could just drop them around corners (I wish they could've stuck to walls too). There were bugfixes and features, and you could actually check players' ping so you could know how much control lag they had, and whether or not their claims they'd pwn you in another server were actually true. 2.0 was progressive in many ways, I just wish it hadn't changed so many other things in the way it did.

Rose-tinted glasses all the way.

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On a side-note, I've been playing Rocket League lately. It is football with cars and nothing else. It's hecka fun, and hecka simple. It's my favourite modern example of why many people did like SRB2 1.09.4, despite valid criticisms that it receives today.

(Edit: Graahhhh, this post became way too long! Hoping that some of it makes sense anyways, this is why I don't use forums T_T)
 
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I honestly didn't find Match very interesting pre 2.0 but I had more opportunity to play when Jazz was hosting his multiplayer stage pack. When in 1.09.4 or 2.0, I pretty much accepted I would never land enough hits to get in the lead except by fluke. And I remember 1.09.4 being rather frustrating because there was no variety in the way you would approach any given match level. It was either head for the rail and snipe, or thok and spam.

With the weapon rings, I at least felt as if I could try approach each level a little differently from everyone else to play to my strengths. I also felt as though there was a little more reason to use Tails as a way to trivialize some of the more complicated level designs. Of course none of the new weapons were good enough to make up for the fact that I just couldn't play match worth anything. Even when by accident I managed to pick up all the chaos emeralds and go super, it was really just wasted. And this was during a time period when I actually wasn't bad at the SP portion of the game. I wouldn't go anywhere near Match now.

Some of the comments are very informative. I think its Ritz raises the point that maybe it shouldn't be so hard to score a hit in SRB2. I'm no FPS player by any means, but I think was always better at landing hits in TF2 now that I think about it. Some of this does sound like nostalgia. I think when a game loses a "certain something" that made it special, sometimes it doesn't really have as much to do with the game itself. For me that "certain something" in match went away when I stopped looking at the game as a player and more as a developer and then the subsequent shift from developer to spectator.

RE Stages... I have always hated Twisted Terminal in 2.0, mostly because the premise behind it is so brilliant that the resulting level design feels like a wasted opportunity. Looking back I think my favorite post 2.0 match was Tidal Palace. Perhaps if levels feel cramped (thinking Infernal Cavern) that should be looked into, but I don't think symmetrical is the way to go.
 
Concept which adapts the two-weapon merge system to prevent Mystic's concern..? Makes picking up weapon rings a concious act without disrupting regular gameplay, especially if static ones replaced weapon panel spawns.

I mean. I don't really have a strong stake in this, since I haven't enjoyed Match for years and have never actually been good at it... but I'm getting intrigued by these thoughts and I want to see them come to fruition in some shape or form so I can see whether it's possible for me to enjoy Match on something other than a conceptual level.

EDIT: or maybe you just lose your primary weapon ring and your secondary becomes your primary
 
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I agree with this--but only because Tree Ring was one of my least favourite maps in 1.09.4's rotation (I know you made it and all, so I hate to be a jerk and criticise, but hear me out).

Just a note, "Some guy" was the author of Tree Ring, not Mystic. That's if my memory is correct of course.
 
Inu, I mean picking up a third one would trigger an obnoxious juggling case of dropping the first, picking up the first and dropping the second, and then picking up the second to get rid of the unwanted third one. Even if you didn't drop them you'd unintentionally pick up the ones on the map occasionally.
Incoming jumbled mass of thoughts:

I dislike this reasoning because it implies that picking up weapons other than the ones you're holding is inherently a bad idea. I would prefer to incentivise weapon pickups. Your weapons could have a single generic "ammo" that you could not replenish except by picking up another weapon - if you wanted to keep your combination, you would have to search for one of the weapons you are already carrying to refill your ammo. Otherwise, any new weapon combination would give you maximum ammo for that combination. It might also be possible to have 1.09.4 style time limits on weapons to keep things flowing by having your ammo degrade slowly over time. As for accidental pickups, weapon rings could go flying in a similar direction to how a player is hit - making it easier for them to pick up their old weapon rings (getting their old ammo count) but harder for you to steal them (refilling your ammo to max).
 
Monster Iestyn said:
Just a note, "Some guy" was the author of Tree Ring, not Mystic. That's if my memory is correct of course.

Oh really? My bad, I might have got it confused with something else (it had the music from the forest levels in Mystic Realm so I might've fuddled it up with them, derp!).

Thanks for the correction, and due apologies to Some guy, if he's still out there somewhere. =P

Edit: Re: the accidental pickups problem, I'm just throwing out ideas here, but what if weapon rings were suspended in small capsules that need to be shot to be opened (exposing the floating weapon ring)? That wouldn't solve the problem of other players dropping the weapons mind you, again I'm just throwing out ideas =)
 
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While threats are less obvious, there are also indications who is on a rampage and needs to be shut down, and making that more obvious is definitely a goal, even if it's just a matter of providing streak information in the combat log.
This doesn't sound much different from just hitting tab to check the scoreboard, which I already do compulsively. It's more a measure of relative player skill than present power distribution, and that information isn't of much use to an unskilled player. Compare with encountering a player nuking the map with autobombrail and knowing, in that moment, you must be the hero to stop the madness- and there's an impetus to doing so when it only takes one shot to steal his power. That power dynamic is where the fun lies. With enough patience, any player can get in that hotseat and feel like their actions matter, even if the pecking order ultimately remains unchanged.

Instead of weapon combos, though, it makes me wonder if we should restructure things slightly again. Provide only weapons (remove the ammo mechanic) and make those weapons WAY stronger to compensate for the lack of combos. Basically take it in an Unreal Tournament direction with completely overkill weapons that would all be hilariously overpowered in any rational FPS, but because all the weapons are crazy, the whole thing balances out. This could also somewhat handle the issue where it feels so demoralizing to lose everything on hit, since you'd be just one weapon away from effectiveness again.
Sounds good! I mean, I still think combos are an ideal solution when it presents an opportunity for players to raise the stakes. Factoral power gains mean having to cover more ground even more quickly while juggling multiple timers, it lends tension and urgency to combat. And since any auto combo triples your ring consumption, you really have to work harder to maintain that level of power. Just making the weapons more effective and removing ammo would still go a long way toward making the game more playable, though.

I also disagree with the idea that symmetry is a good idea pretty firmly. I don't mind the idea of making single-room maps, as we do still have Sapphire Falls and Meadow Match in the rotation, but symmetry makes it basically impossible to have one of anything in a map except at the very center, and often you want to have the map focus on something other than the very center. You'll notice a trend in 1.X maps being that the central room was the only important one. Tree Ring is a perfect example of this problem; it was huge and had all this wonderful space, yet everyone just stuck around the center where the random monitor was. In most of the games I played on Tree Ring, the entire outside and upper part of the map could have been removed and the match wouldn't have changed at all. Of all the things in your post, I think Tree Ring and Air Haven are the only things with complete rose-colored glasses at work. I hope you do get to play some rounds on them again to see how bad they really are.
To clarify, it's not the symmetry that matters, but the structure those symmetrical maps just happened to have, with an emphasis on verticality. I'm judging these maps presently by how good they feel to move around in, and Tree Ring still has a sick flow with more rapid transitions from low to high ground than possibly any other match map to date. If the only thing holding it back is one monitor at the center of the map, that seems like a remarkably easy fix: Either make the center the highest point in the map, or just remove the monitor. Iron Turret got an upgrade, so why not? (I don't think Tree Ring is actually symmetrical, anyway?)

A little more conceptual, here: I don't remember the homing ring being all that bad. I know everyone hated it because it had a tendency to crash the game and it made some combos insufferable, but I thought the base weapon was reasonably balanced and appropriate for SRB2. The thing about non-hitscan projectiles is that they make landing shots on an enemy that's above or below you exponentially more difficult, because you have a whole new axis decimating your margin of error by a factor of about 180. Homing is a classic solution for that: See Virtual On, a game all about high speed surface-to-air projectile combat in a full 3D space where all but the heaviest weapons have varying degrees of homing capability. I'm not really suggesting anything here, just food for thought. There might still be a place for a slow, short range weapon with some targeting certainty.

Particularly thinking about how to handle combat in Z-space now since S****o made a good observation a few days ago: How are slopes going to impact match? Landing aerial shots isn't a priority since an airborne opponent will eventually come down, but it's going to be a real bitch to land a shot on someone that can move on three axes without ever leaving the ground. We're expecting to see them all over the SP maps, but I'm guessing they'll be used sparingly elsewhere.

Oh, EDIT:
On a side-note, I've been playing Rocket League lately. It is football with cars and nothing else. It's hecka fun, and hecka simple. It's my favourite modern example of why many people did like SRB2 1.09.4, despite valid criticisms that it receives today.
My go-to game for high speed Quake deathmatch after SRB2 was Bionic Commando. GOTY all years
 
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Just throwing an idea into the fire, not really related to reviving 1.0's shit match system but how about if you only lost one weapon panel when you're shot, but can be shot repeatedly while in hitstun to drop more, until you land and temp invincibility kicks in? It doesn't go against any of the established Sonic rules and would prevent the annoying thok/shoot pointblank/get paid scenario.
 
Even as a regular player at that time, it was hard to memorise the weapons locations and even harder to pick them up--because with all those weapons it's much harder to figure out exactly which ones are worth your time getting, while other players are chaotically picking up stuff for themselves (including your team's flag. =P)
This is one of the reasons I think we need something to mark the weapon spawn points even when they're currently waiting on respawn.

If I can add to that, IMO it was always fun waiting for those specific maps that had your favourite weapons; and it also meant that a good opponent wasn't necessarily going to beat you on every map, due to different weapon preferences which can leave you slightly better off (or otherwise).
While this isn't fully in effect, you'll notice a lot of the 2.X stages intentionally have gimmicks instead of restricting weapon selection, such as Tidal Palace's tide mechanic or Infernal Cavern's hazards. Even the stages without such gimmicks intentionally mess with the variables somewhat, which causes some weapons to be better than others in different stages. Noxious Factory has a lot of rings and Desolate Twilight has very few. Some levels are cramped and bounce is really effective, and some aren't. The main purpose is to give players access to everything, but make the value of things differ based on the level. While this is a little bit more complicated than the previous system in how it provides variety, it provides a lot more depth.

Sounds good! I mean, I still think combos are an ideal solution when it presents an opportunity for players to raise the stakes. Factoral power gains mean having to cover more ground even more quickly while juggling multiple timers, it lends tension and urgency to combat. And since any auto combo triples your ring consumption, you really have to work harder to maintain that level of power. Just making the weapons more effective and removing ammo would still go a long way toward making the game more playable, though.
The problem with the combos was always how horribly inconsistent it was, and it quickly ended up leading to maps ending up with far less variety than desired. It also was horribly complicated to handle in design, as it led to far more "weapons" than we have now in 2.X. Instead of an example, I guess I'll just list all the old two-ring combos and how well they worked out:

  • Automatic + Explosion: Framerate death. Even after we lowered the firing speed specifically for this combo, it was still a serious framerate problem with occasional crashes in larger games. When it works it's pretty fun, though.
  • Automatic + Homing: Actually worse than homing, since multiple shots in the same position were useless wastes of rings.
  • Automatic + Infinity: Fun and reasonable. Probably the best combo in 1.09.4.
  • Automatic + Rail: Way overpowered, but possible to use if really careful. Also could lead to framerate problems.
  • Explosion + Homing: Basically the same as homing alone. The only difference is extra knockback on a hit.
  • Explosion + Infinity: Basically the same as explosion alone.
  • Explosion + Rail: Also fun and moderately reasonable. This is the second-best combo in 1.09.4.
  • Homing + Infinity: Allows for silly spam tactics, but firing too frequently doesn't get any benefit, so it's not significantly better than homing alone.
  • Homing + Rail: Absolutely hilariously overpowered. If you can maintain this in any way, you win.
  • Infinity + Rail: Basically the same as rail alone.
So counting that up, we've got two hilariously overpowered combos, two strong but fun combos, five that don't give any real benefit, and one that crashes the game. It's no wonder so many stages ended up with automatic-infinity, rail-explosion, or just a single weapon. This is why the weapon combos were so problematic: the benefit of combining the weapons wasn't linear, it was generally either flat or exponential. As the person who was in charge of designing the stages for vanilla match back then, 1.X's match system was incredibly restrictive in what I could do because of how badly certain weapons combined.

To clarify, it's not the symmetry that matters, but the structure those symmetrical maps just happened to have, with an emphasis on verticality. I'm judging these maps presently by how good they feel to move around in, and Tree Ring still has a sick flow with more rapid transitions from low to high ground than possibly any other match map to date. If the only thing holding it back is one monitor at the center of the map, that seems like a remarkably easy fix: Either make the center the highest point in the map, or just remove the monitor. Iron Turret got an upgrade, so why not? (I don't think Tree Ring is actually symmetrical, anyway?)
The problems with Tree Ring go way beyond just the monitor in the center. The problem is that the cost of leaving the center is more than just the lost chance at the monitor; because everyone else on the map is also in the center, you lose out on the ability to get points in exchanges. Because of the lack of shields in the map overall, it's not worth it to spend a while stocking up on the outside area of the map because you'll likely just get hit and drop it all for everyone else to take. That verticality and sick flow ends up becoming a detriment to the map because it discourages players from engaging with it because of the time it takes to use it for so little benefit.

Tree Ring would work way better as an emerald hunt map than a match map.

A little more conceptual, here: I don't remember the homing ring being all that bad. I know everyone hated it because it had a tendency to crash the game and it made some combos insufferable, but I thought the base weapon was reasonably balanced and appropriate for SRB2. The thing about non-hitscan projectiles is that they make landing shots on an enemy that's above or below you exponentially more difficult, because you have a whole new axis decimating your margin of error by a factor of about 180. Homing is a classic solution for that: See Virtual On, a game all about high speed surface-to-air projectile combat in a full 3D space where all but the heaviest weapons have varying degrees of homing capability. I'm not really suggesting anything here, just food for thought. There might still a place for a slow, short range weapon with some targeting certainty.
The problem with the homing ring wasn't the concept; it was the execution. The way the homing ring worked, you fired it and it immediately targeted the closest opponent and started homing in on them. There was no benefit to even pointing the crosshair at the opponent. Because of that design, the optimal use of the homing ring was to grab it, run around the map, thokking as much as possible, and firing on a regular basis. The issue is basically the same as the grenade ring in 2.0.X, where the weapon is best used spammed while completely ignoring your opponents entirely.

I do think there's potential for a homing ring, but it would have to be designed in a manner where you actually want to fire at the opponent instead of the terrible 1.X design.
 
Although, I've never played 1.09.4 or 2.0.7. I would like to see the combinations return as well as the homing ring. But in a way, where they wouldn't crash the game or overpower most of your opponents. Since I don't want to have a game of match that crashes and has most players to get no chance of successfully hitting any opponents, just because there's a bug or overpowered weapon.
 
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This is one of the reasons I think we need something to mark the weapon spawn points even when they're currently waiting on respawn.

That's a pretty cool idea and would definitely be helpful for new players. (to e.g. show a ghost of a weapon ring when it's not there, and make it solid once it's respawned.) It'd be helpful to them and also mostly unintrusive to skilled players.

But I think explained myself badly, I don't think memorisation was the main problem for me as a skilled player, so I'm gonna reword this (I suck at explaining stuff, hence my lack of forum posts Internet-wide =P).

What I meant was that, more importantly, it was difficult to prioritise picking them up in the chaos of battle (so their locations are more out-of-your-mind most of the time). When you're half battling and half trying to equip yourself, deciding which weapon ring to go for is really difficult especially when you have no clue which of the 7+ weapons have spawned.

Actually, to expand on that further, in 2.0+ it's just harder to casually pick up a weapon while fighting. In 1.09.4, the cool thing was that picking up weapons just went with the flow; if you were fighting and you knew one was close by, you could pick it up without even taking your eyes off your opponent, and use it against them instantly. It was fun and fluid; I think this might be along the lines of what Ritz was explaining.

While this isn't fully in effect, you'll notice a lot of the 2.X stages intentionally have gimmicks instead of restricting weapon selection, such as Tidal Palace's tide mechanic or Infernal Cavern's hazards. Even the stages without such gimmicks intentionally mess with the variables somewhat, which causes some weapons to be better than others in different stages. Noxious Factory has a lot of rings and Desolate Twilight has very few. Some levels are cramped and bounce is really effective, and some aren't. The main purpose is to give players access to everything, but make the value of things differ based on the level. While this is a little bit more complicated than the previous system in how it provides variety, it provides a lot more depth.

I know I'm gonna convey this badly and I'm sorry if this is unconstructive criticism, but at least in my ring of players (most players on the M.S back in the day), I didn't know *anyone* who liked Inferno Cavern. Tidal Palace was okay, but had similar criticisms.

Traversal is really important, and fun. Traversal in SRB2 is cool because there can be more than one way to get somewhere--e.g. monitor-bouncing, precision platforming, taking the safe route, or the slow risky moving platform, going upside-down, all of that. Players like that stuff because they're in full control (minus maybe the moving platform, which was often one of the least fun routes to take). Not only that, but the more fun options in that list will make them look and feel like a fast, awesome, skilled, or incredibly lucky player. Risky jumps and monitor bouncing FTW!

But Inferno Cavern isn't like that. Traversing that level just means getting somewhere without getting hit by some lava flow, dancing flames, etc. You're fighting the level, instead of the other players. It's no fun and I hope I'm not alone here in thinking this. We don't want to be getting hit by the level, we want to be getting hit by the other players at most. The only time we deserve to be hit by the level is if we make a deliberate, choice-driven, risky move--and we mess up.

I'm not saying hazards are terrible in every case, but I am saying it distracts from the actual combat, and also that the player wants the choice. Hazards can work, but if there is a level which has one 'safe route' (but with more players likely to shoot you), and one 'hazard route' (one that takes skill to get through, but will probably have less opponents except for those determined to stop you), that level would be infinitely more fun than a level that is filled with hazards everywhere.

With Tidal Palace though, it's interesting. The lack of choice in when the water rises and stuff is annoying--and needing to get bubbles, or go to the one single area that's above water just to survive is a little annoying as well--but the level doesn't distract from the actual match as much. In fact, if two players have elemental shields, it's sometimes fun to fight them in underwater slow-mo and see who wins! So I have a mixed opinion on that level, I think other people do too; most people prefer the usual fast-paced combat, but Tidal Palace really isn't that bad as a unique level in the rotation.

Mystic said:
The problem with the combos [...]

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I was thinking, if the combos were theoretically limited to two maximum (there are ways to manage the problem of letting the player choose which ones to have, I'm sure of it), couldn't each combo be made into something that is effectively a unique weapon, but has balanced properties of the two weapons grabbed?

e.g. Scatter+Rail would act like a shotgun, spreading in a cone shape with maybe a 30-degree angle each way, but its range would be reduced to a few metres, or perhaps it'd keep its range but only fire a few scattered shots.
Automatic+Rail would act like a Rail Ring with just twice the refire rate, or something similarly balanced-but-not-entirely-OP.
Automatic+Bomb would throw normal automatic rings, but as a bonus, every half-second you'll release a bomb ring. This way you could use it just like you'd use a normal bomb ring--fire occasionally--or you can just keep firing away your favourite Auto rings, while enjoying a small explosive benefit.

Something like that would still feel fun since you can gain a little more power by collecting two types of rings, although this format would probably be better suited to levels that don't necessarily have all weapon rings. There are some problems with e.g. the player wanting Automatic to purely make them shoot super-rapidly (doesn't work well with the old Auto+Bomb), but for that the player could simply avoid picking them up.

Also, re: the Homing Ring, couldn't that theoretically be changed so that it flies at a higher speed, and changes trajectory more slowly? Sure, more skilled players might not want to pick that up because it doesn't hit as reliably as their own aim, but that's okay too--it's a weapon that newbies could use, since the ring's aim would still be better than their own.


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Sorry for the long post again, I've had thoughts about this stuff for a long time... and I really liked this game and really miss it. =P
 
But Inferno Cavern isn't like that. Traversing that level just means getting somewhere without getting hit by some lava flow, dancing flames, etc. You're fighting the level, instead of the other players.
THANK YOU. You just put into perfect words what I couldn't express for the past five years.
 
Traversing that level just means getting somewhere without getting hit by some lava flow, dancing flames, etc. You're fighting the level, instead of the other players. It's no fun and I hope I'm not alone here in thinking this.

Not necessarily defending Infernal Cavern, as I don't recall really caring for it myself, but I do like it when one multiplayer map plays very differently from the others. A level like Infernal Cavern makes me think of some of those levels in Super Smash Bros where the hazards are a real threat and much of the gameplay is about using the hazards to your advantage. If it is so unforgiving that it becomes unplayable, that is bad, it should be just enough to change up the way you approach that level. It could be a chance to reward someone whose playstyle is a little more oriented toward reacting to the level (a'la Singleplayer) over someone whose playstyle is more straight-up combat.

In the specific case of Infernal Cavern, it has been so long since I played that online and if it has been updated I've not played the update. I have a vague memory of the actual play area feeling confined due to the space the lava took up, and the fact that the level layout was hard to learn... but of course those of you who are still playing it could give much better feedback on it.
 
JEV3 said:
Not necessarily defending Infernal Cavern, as I don't recall really caring for it myself, but I do like it when one multiplayer map plays very differently from the others. A level like Infernal Cavern makes me think of some of those levels in Super Smash Bros where the hazards are a real threat and much of the gameplay is about using the hazards to your advantage. If it is so unforgiving that it becomes unplayable, that is bad, it should be just enough to change up the way you approach that level. It could be a chance to reward someone whose playstyle is a little more oriented toward reacting to the level (a'la Singleplayer) over someone whose playstyle is more straight-up combat.

In the specific case of Infernal Cavern, it has been so long since I played that online and if it has been updated I've not played the update. I have a vague memory of the actual play area feeling confined due to the space the lava took up, and the fact that the level layout was hard to learn... but of course those of you who are still playing it could give much better feedback on it.

Yeah, I agree in a sense--it's nice to have the occasional 'that' level (e.g. Nimbus Ruins 'that bottomless pit level', which makes you feel epic when you traverse it well and fast; or Dual Fortress 'the Homing Ring level' in 1.09.4 when the newbies had a chance to overwhelm you with auto-homing rings). But the level needs to be fun, and in Match, not discourage you from actually fighting players.

Inferno Cavern doesn't fit the bill. Most people you ask who still play the game will just say 'yeah I don't really like that level', or at best 'it's not exactly my favourite'. They might not feel like explaining why. Others may say 'yeah that's a well-designed level', but you'd be hard-pressed to hear even them say that they actually play it and enjoy it. There just isn't much fun in being stuck in such a small space and avoiding punishing obstacles in a game that is ideally about engaging other players in combat.

It's a little different in levels in Nimbus Ruins for the reason I explained before, you actually feel good when you traverse them. The feeling of blasting through a high-up dangerous fragmented floating palace(?) is something that isn't even closely matched by that of trying to get anywhere in Inferno Cavern without dropping all your collectibles.

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So for analysis' sake (and fun!) I played some Matches and CTF's on the MS today. (with some familiar faces too, ggs guys and gals, you know who you are! =) ) It was fun, but I was left feeling kinda empty. It's natural, Sonic's dying and that hasn't helped this already aged game one bit. The control lag, and the sync failures, and the shrunken community are also helping to drive away the players who are able to play newer games of the current-generation quality standard.

I still love the core game and always have. Blasting at high-speed, dodging torrents of projectiles from enemies as equally OP as you, shooting them down, making epic jumps and monitor bounces, sniping others doing them same, chasing down your opponent while s/he runs backwards with the flag and you're doing everything in your power to stop him/her, chasing down players in Nimbus Ruins while skillfully hopping from platform to platform, sniping the airborne players who were unfortunate enough to hit the dreaded Pool Spring in Meadow Match (that was always a classic!). Even aesthetically I liked the bright colours and the simplicity of the levels, Metal Star was great not because it was a Picasso-quality design but because you could engage almost all players from almost any range, bounce on monitors, take shortcuts, etc.

So I was kinda disheartened when I tried 2.1 for the first time and saw the exact changes that had been made: changes that didn't bring me any closer to that hypersonic ringlingin' state; if anything, further from it. There are changes, and that's it. They're okay and look like they were hard work. But there's no flair left. It's like changes are being made to make the game more compliant with logically superior gameplay standards, but miss the spirit of the stuff that made us (or me, I'm not alone here though right? err rright?) play SRB2 to begin with. What's new, what's fresh, and what can make me feel like a supersonic ringslinger? Lua scripting is cool but didn't do that, adding detail to levels is fine but didn't do that, adding a brake sound is interesting but didn't do that, adding a death respawn timer is standard but didn't do that.

I remember reading somewhere here recently, that SRB2 kinda became a project where you guys would throw in some of the stuff you felt like working on, and overall add it as an improvement to the game. It's kinda sad, but I can totally respect that; it's an old project and I myself steered way clear from the code after I made SRB2CS.

But it just kinda saddens me that Match/CTF is in a semi-dead state now, where the changes are maybe interesting but irrelevant to SRB2's core fun factor. There were soooo many things that I wanted to be added and changed in SRB2 back in the day, often ambitious (client-side netcode, higher frame rate, slopes---yes slopes---I wanna see how a match with slopes would play out!--more levels, 3D models, dynamic animations where characters look at each other while fighting and stuff, rings with customised rainbow trails or I dunno random fun stuff like that which may or may not work in practice).

Now I knew these changes would probably never come, but that was okay: the good ol' core game's still there, right? Kinda... somewhere under all the new stuff (sorry about the sucky handwritten notes, it's just to illustrate my initial thoughts on the levels, and it's kinda blunt. Original levels for comparison's sake.)

The fact that 2.0 already added complexity to the game flow in terms of being able to keep track of weapons and read other players was already a minor blow.

SRB2 deserved to change, and it deserved to improve. I've just constantly felt that, since 2.0, it's gone in a totally wrong direction, at least for Match/CTF players. Maybe it's a little prettier, maybe the weapons are more balanced, maybe it's more efficient. But it's come at the cost of so many things, and I feel bad for not being able to see past that so I can celebrate the few things that have improved in the way I'd always wanted. I can't even enjoy the now darker, more hard-edged aesthetic (e.g. 2.0 crawla upgrade, 2.1 monitor and shield upgrades) as much as I did, because it's another one of those things that went in a different direction.

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tl;dr, I--one random player with overly particular opinions--was disappointed that SRB2 didn't change the way I'd expected. My ideal SRB2 was a more simplistic cartoony game that thrived on fun-but-logically-unnecessary ideas (Red XVI, Christmas Mode, ring combining, etc) and didn't take itself too seriously, or as much as it just wanted to be a fun high-speed game with a high skill ceiling. A game that wasn't as dark, careful or conservative as most of the other games out there.

And don't get me wrong--even in nostalgia-tinted 1.09.4, there was tons of frustrations and room for improvement, and potential for cool new features and content. It just didn't crop up in the end--it was replaced.

[edit: I know this is kinda redundant but....again this is all just my opinion. I don't wanna offend the folks who dedicated their time and energy working on this game, just want to share my personal perspective without sugar-coating. And I'm not used to this, so I'mma just clarify that's what I'm doing, in case I'm doing it badly =P]
 
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On Inferno Canyon:

1. It's all solid red, which is not only aesthetically bleh but also makes it difficult to make out the standard ring projectile
2. Lots of walls and lava floors make it claustrophobic with not that much room to move around
3. Lava is bad for match gametypes because of the way it interacts with spilled rings. Either you let the rings go and risk someone with a shield taking them, or you struggle to get them back with what little invincibility time you have to collect them. e.g. "fighting the map".
 
While I personally never had much of a problem with switching weapon types in the middle of a firefight - except when my inputs were simply eaten, I appreciate how difficult it could be for some people - especially in high-latency matches. This combined with the fact that the extra depth of having an actual kit of weapons is bought with the complexity of having to gather and equip them in the heat of the moment makes me understand fully why people might prefer something similar to the old system. Well, that plus the uniqueness of the system being endearing.

I noticed a supreme bias towards Sonic users in this thread, though. With Sonic being the only character to be somewhat nerfed from 1.0.4 to 2.0 by flagthokking being neutered, but flagflying only being very slightly debuffed as a result (Tails losing his ability to run on water with speed shoes notwithstanding) people who prefer Tails' ability to navigate levels via unconventional routes - screw you, Meadow Match pool, I don't need your stinking springs - and also Knuckles gaining his ability to shoot rings faster than the others, befitting his nature as the strong man of the crew. But it was simply the increased speed of those two compared to Sonic that gave them (especially Tails) enough maneuverability to actually avoid stuff which made them useful. Sure, Sonic can chase Tails right down in an open field, but Tails is now up on a platform that Sonic needs to traverse half the level to get to, and is now bombarding him with all manner of junk.

And, yes, Inferno Canyon is kind of terrible when you're Sonic or Knuckles. As a Tails player, it took me this long to realise it. Sure, it's tactical, because I can fly up onto a perch near some fire geysers - or even hover over the geysers - and litter the place with grenades, before shooting Scatter or Bounce down the hallway, but it's a level designed overly much to gimp Sonic. And, yes, far too many levels in the old days were designed only for Sonic (although that low-gravity space station was great for Tails, since he rarely had to worry about getting stuck on the ceiling like a sucker... unless he got hit, that is) but an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, you know. The platforms that are low enough for Tails to safely get up onto, but high (and unwieldy) enough to trouble Knuckles and foil Sonic only make matters worse. And if you get a green shield, you can jump into the lavafall and hide inside the lava... which has active collision on it's surface going in, which can frustrate attackers.

While those musings are largely irrelevant to the weapon system per-se, it's worthy of note. Perhaps my preference for the new system comes from Tails' gameplay being more cerebral than Sonic's, and slower paced - which allows me more luxury to switch out my tools. When you GOTTA GO FAST, such things suddenly become a bit too much to handle at once. That said, if we go back, we need need need better combos than the ones in 1.09.4. As was said earlier, most were useless, and of the ones that weren't, half were completely overpowered to the point of nipping that precious momentum in the bud if someone competent got their hands on them. And this is even taking into account the fact that the infinity powerup works with the secondary fire, which always throws standard rings, regardless of current equipment.

But it's not all doom and gloom. Meadow Match is a (death)match level I can think of that holds a winning formula and not only takes the 2.0 system in stride, but outright works with it. Open ground spaces for Sonic to move around in. Wide airspaces for Knuckles to dominate. Obstacles and cover for Tails to skirt around and pick unsuspecting furries off with. There's enough of everything to enable each player to work in their comfort zone - or be forced out of it by someone else's devious move. And the Chaos Emeralds work very well, because tracking a target is easy - and that works both ways. Which works out for a very entertaining game of cat and mouse (or Colossus and Wander? Ultimate Chimera and Pigmasks?) where that super-powered character who everyone wants to bring down and is focusing on is in surrounded by every other player, and you're safely damaging them - or trying to - and then they zero in on you, and suddenly you're scrambling desperately for some breathing room. Of course, it's not so hot in a one on one... but nothing is in this game. Except maybe Race or Competition.

In short: I had a lot more fun with the 2.0 system than the previous one - as the simple fact of this being a Sonic game kept more than enough uniqueness for me to not simply go back to Doom or Gears of War or whatever, what with the whole "get hit, drop your stuff - so grab those shields and git gud" thing actually making you more durable than in normal shooters. Even 200 health and armour in Doom can be chewed through remarkably fast. And, really, how many CTF modes in games let you hang-glide over the whole map to your base as a two-tailed fox?
 
I Hate the way the players lose their weapon rings when they get hit in Matches, i thought they were only supposed to lose their Normal rings .
 
Why was the grenade ring mechanic changed, anyway? I heard that they used to eventually stick to the ground and work like a proximity weapon. Sure, I can understand, that's more how grenades actually work, but other than that.. why?
 
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