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Old 12-03-2016   #101
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CoughSSN Sonic as unlockableCough
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Old 12-03-2016   #102
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I think there's still room for one fourth unlockable character that shares abilities with each of the characters without excelling at any of them. Like, say, Vector- he's got the shoulder bash from Chaotix, so that's a weaker take on Sonic's thok. He climbs slower than Knuckles and can break walls, and then he could just swim in water as an analogue for Tails' flight.

Just saying, it's not like I'm pushing an agenda here or anything-
I'd be totally down with that, though the specifics I would probably disagree with. First off, it doesn't make sense to relegate a jack-of-all-trades character to an unlock -- if you include such a character at all, it has to be default so that new players have a "standard" lense from which they can view the game through. And anyway, a character with half-flight, half-glide, and half-thok would have to be the least interesting character you could hide behind an unlock. It would be better to use a new ability with unique properties and applications, but one which still presents benefits in each field. Otherwise it reduces the individuality of each character's toolkit.

Hinote's gameplay is a fairly good example of a "neutral" character done well -- an average-speed character that has a jump thok, which is functionally pretty unique in playstyle, but helps in the field of speed with its jolt of mobility, the field of platforming with its upward thrust, and the field of exploration due to the additional height it adds. Put it on a non-OC (e.g. Ray the Squirrel) and you'd be home free. I'm sure there's probably better mechanics and more interesting characters we'd want, but that's roughly the idea we should go for if we were ever to pursue a "balanced" archetype as a possible fourth.

But I mean shit, I'd be down for four default characters and an unlockable fifth. I mean it's not like we're using character-specific emblems anymore, so the only things stopping us are deciding what to add, if it's even worth adding, and actually spriting the damn thing.
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Old 12-03-2016   #103
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Speaking on the hypothetical chance of an unlockable fourth character, I don't think they should be a "balanced" character, but rather a character that's so balls-to-the-wall unique from the main three that it really feels like they're a breath of fresh air to play after unlocking them, but not so different that you're playing an entirely different game.

Rosy/Amy I think is the best example I can come up with, where your playstyle has to drastically change to accommodate for her shortcomings(inability to damage stuff normally) and her abilities let her do what all 3 characters can do(break walls, go fast, go high) but in totally different ways; And yet if you wanted to you could just ignore all of that and stroll through the game normally because she can run and jump with the best of 'em.

Of course with her you run into the issue of making even more buttons mandatory, so you couldn't do something exactly like that, but she was just an example.
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Old 12-04-2016   #104
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I'd be all for having Amy if her moveset could be condensed to only require the jump and spin keys.
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Old 12-04-2016   #105
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I'd go so far as to say using Fire 1 for her hammer attack.
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Old 12-04-2016   #106
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I want to actually tinker with Rosy so she's more button friendly. but looking at the whole thing, its just messy...
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Old 12-04-2016   #107
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I'd go so far as to say using Fire 1 for her hammer attack.
Then you run into the issue of how she'd work in ringslinger gametypes, because ringslinging is far more effective than slowly running up to someone and hammering. I do think she could work if you can condense all her actions to just the Spin key, but let's be honest: how the hell are you gonna do that? If you put her hammer actions on the Spin key, she loses her slide which is required for her to go under low ceilings, and she loses peelout, which lets her go fast.
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Old 12-04-2016   #108
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Personally, I'm against having an unlockable character. Firstly... Well, we can make our own custom characters as we wish, and download each other's, but I understand that's not a proper reason. Secondly, how would that even work in multiplayer?
- If we say "if the host has it, everyone has it", then everyone who hasn't unlocked it will be confused, due to no mods being added, and if the host doesn't have it, those who have unlocked it would be confused about not being able to play as the unlocked character.
- If we say "everyone can use it", again, everyone who hasn't unlocked it will be confused, especially if that includes the host who didn't add any mods.
- If we say "noone can use it", that's pretty bad against everyone who has unlocked it, especially if everyone on the server has unlocked it, even more so if it's a private co-op server with a friend or something.
- If we say "everyone who has unlocked it can use it", we again come to the confusion for those who haven't unlocked it, and especially if the host hasn't and sees lots of the unlocked character in a mod-free game where the host is entirely unable to use that character.
- If we say "the host decides it", then that'll either allow them to use the unlockable character before unlocking it if the host always decides it, or be perfectly fine if the host only decides it if they've unlocked the character, but in both cases, we again come to the problem of players who haven't unlocked the character seeing the character in a mod-free server.
- If we go "if everyone has it, everyone can use it", that means there could be people playing as the character, then a person without the character could join and "rob" them of the character.
- If we go "non-multiplayer"... That's definitely just the wrong decision.

In short, there is no correct way to implement it for multiplayer, and it's also wrong to make it single-player only, not to mention the burst of extra emblems from record attack when the character is unlocked or the lack of record attack with the character. All of these things can be overcome by just only having the normal 3 characters unlocked at all times, and using custom characters for other characters if wanted.

...Besides, why's all this "unlockable character" speak even in the 2.2 teaser thread, rather than some suggestion thread? (It's too discuss-able to be put in the "Suggestions" thread itself, of course.)
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Old 12-04-2016   #109
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Im ok with an unlockable 4th Vanilla character thats is Balanced... but im not sure who to put for the 4th character,

IMO make a Completely new character, literally brand new and only exclusive to SRB2.

Also can we all agree this 4th character is only allowed in Single Player.
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Old 12-04-2016   #110
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Let's set the record straight: There will not be a fourth unlockable character. Our hands are pretty full as it is.

That said, this IS a neat discussion about game design and probably deserves its own topic in the General SRB2 subforum.
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Old 12-04-2016   #111
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- If we say "everyone who has unlocked it can use it", we again come to the confusion for those who haven't unlocked it, and especially if the host hasn't and sees lots of the unlocked character in a mod-free game where the host is entirely unable to use that character.
Hey, it worked fine for Smash 4. You don't need to have played as a character yourself to get the gist of what they can do for cooperation/competition purposes pretty quickly.
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Old 12-06-2016   #112
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I was thinking that maybe if you got all the emblems and unlocked all the extras you would get a extra character. Like Metal Sonic in Sonic Adventure DX.
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Old 12-06-2016   #113
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See, even in the situation where we did unlock a character, we wouldn't do it like that. What would the point even be if you unlocked the character after you've completed everything?

There's nothing inherently against unlockable characters in SRB2 other than the serious effort involved in doing it and that most of the ones people want are modern Sonic cancer (*cough* Shadow *cough*). In fact, a good decade ago there was a serious discussion about making Eggman unlockable, which as you can probably tell we decided against doing. The main problem is that we think that it's important that each character feel significantly different in gameplay. We already have a problem right now with only three characters that Tails and Knuckles feel too similar. If we already have trouble with only three, we'd be severely overstretching our ability if we had even more.
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Old 12-06-2016   #114
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the real reason why Eggman isn't playable is because he would have to be faster than Sonic to remain accurate to the classic games
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Old 12-06-2016   #115
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It was Eggmobile Eggman, not on foot. Heavens no, do you really expect us to break the game like that? =P
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Old 12-06-2016   #116
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It was Eggmobile Eggman, not on foot. Heavens no, do you really expect us to break the game like that? =P
That would be weird though, since eggman on foot is kinda slow unless something is chasing him, in which case he's as fast as whatever is chasing...

Gosh. Wonder what would happen if you stuck a deton behind him?
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Old 12-06-2016   #117
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The only official time we ever had any control of Eggman outside of his hover craft was SA2 in the Chao World. Before then he was only ever seen either walking (Why would he need to run when he's safely behind something), or being chased by Sonic on foot.

I'd have to say Eggman is faster than we like to give him credit for.
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Old 12-06-2016   #118
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That would be weird though, since eggman on foot is kinda slow unless something is chasing him, in which case he's as fast as whatever is chasing...

Gosh. Wonder what would happen if you stuck a deton behind him?
Well, presumably the game would either overflow error or you'd max out at 2^16-1 or whatever the cap is. For those that don't know, Detons have a variable speed based on the max speed of whatever they're chasing. This would lead to a clear feedback loop if Eggman on foot was playable =P
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Old 12-06-2016   #119
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Let's make it his unique mechanic, then! Race to the end of the level before the game overflows!
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Old 12-06-2016   #120
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The main problem is that we think that it's important that each character feel significantly different in gameplay. We already have a problem right now with only three characters that Tails and Knuckles feel too similar. If we already have trouble with only three, we'd be severely overstretching our ability if we had even more.
What you would most likely need then is a gimmick character, someone that fundamentally changes a certain game mechanic to create a vastly different experience. Having a different attack mechanism at the expensive of spin attacks is a pretty obvious solution to this, one which many custom characters have already explored in different fashions -- I could totally see an Egg Mobile (or perhaps Egg Robo, which would make more sense in the instance of boss battles) being unlocked and providing its own experience through unique attack and movement mechanics.



I suppose in the end it's not of much consequence -- we already have lots of custom characters in releases, many of which are terrific quality. An unlockable character would ultimately just be an official endorsement of a character that was community-designed.... Then again, isn't essentially everything in this game community-designed?
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