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Old 04-08-2011   #61
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I saw the trailer just now, the classic and the modern together in a game.No doubt that Sega wants all the fans happy in Sonic's Anniversary.
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Old 04-08-2011   #62
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Originally Posted by SSNTails View Post
Sorry Sega, but I've grown too old. It shouldn't take you 13 years to even begin trying to fix your character.
Sonic Advance didn't fix Sonic?
Sonic Colors didn't fix Sonic?
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Old 04-08-2011   #63
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Sonic Advance is "hold right to win"... I even tested this on a couple stages by closing my eyes, holding right and mashing the jump button now and then.

I haven't played Sonic Colors since I don't have a Wii. Sonic Heroes was the last 3D Sonic game I played. Only thing I've tried since then is Sonic 4.

Sonic Colors may very well be a great game. But the problem is, how many of you meet some random person and admit to liking Sonic in a casual conversation? How does that feel? Probably embarassing. It sure doesn't feel the same way when talking about Mario. Why is that? Sonic has spent so many years destroying his reputation that most of the fans left over 8 years old are geeky anime kids who get a hard-on for Super Saiyan Goku, or furries.

When a new Mario game comes out, I feel like I have to play it. Sonic has lost that draw and charm. You know it's just going to be about some pompous blue asshole shouting out "yeah!" "alright!" "cool!" with the same sound sample repeating every 4 seconds as he jumps through multicolored hoops on a preset track. Don't get me started on the very horrible voice acting and the attempts to include some kind of 'story' with multiple cutscenes failing to immerse you. How many times can you make a racing game based on the same concepts with a few stop-and-jump areas to force it under the Platformer classification?

Mario, with its limited scenes and dialog (usually any cinematics are silent), tend to use gestures and other actions, and only tell the bare minimum. This lets your imagination run wild to fill in the gaps, much like reading a book and visualizing the characters and their voices. Sonic is like watching the Movie adapation of the Mario book.

Miyamoto has a rule...make a game, then make a character to FIT the game. This is how Sonic was born (Naka wanted a rolling character for the gameplay mechanic), and it worked very well in Sonic's favor back in his original journeys. Now the modus operandi is "Here is the character, now make a game around them". This doesn't work nearly as well and explains why Sonic has been stuck with the same format while Mario has shot out of cannons, zipped down slides, traveled to distant planets and defied gravity.
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Old 04-08-2011   #64
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AJ, you have a way with words, because you've basically spelled out exactly how I feel in a way I could never come close to doing myself.

I'd also like to add that although Mario does do new things regularly, they also clearly still remember their history and know how to make games in the older design as well. NSMBW feels just like the Mario games of my childhood, just with far better graphics and the simultaneous multiplayer I always wanted as a child to boot. You don't ever see fans eviscerating Nintendo over the physics or gameplay of their attempts to return to the old days because Nintendo gets it right with no issues at all.

SEGA just seems to be doing a reaction to whatever the fans complain about this week. The fans loved Shadow in SA2; bring him back to life. The fans want a more classic design; remove the plot from the Adventure games because we're Sonic HEROES. The fans want a return to the classics; name it Sonic 4. The fans hate green eyes; change them to black. There's absolutely no concept of actually putting forth a vision from the beginning of the project to create something good. All this is is a reaction to last week's complaint, and while I'm as happy to see classic Sonic character design as the rest of the community, I remain extremely skeptical as to their chances of actually making a good game this way.
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Old 04-08-2011   #65
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I know what you mean with the story of the games. Why couldn't it be like sonic satam, balancing the dark aspects with humor? And as for the remaking old levels?T hey did it pretty well with green hill in Sa2 right? Making it compatible with the game play style? and you''re also right about the fans. This is one franchise that fan input should not be used for game ideas, an example being how one fan wanted to have sonic use a gun, and they used the concept for shadow the hedgehog. Can you also give more examples of how fan input affected the sonic franchise?
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Old 04-08-2011   #66
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I think this comment on a YouTube video really sums up what I feel.
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Originally Posted by FindWatchEnjoy
@sm1carnage thats because he dint change in over 20 years thats lame, sonic changed like evry year, i know some of them were bad but u learn from ur mistakes and mario games are starting to get boring since its always the same but the change a little bit and say its a new game. sonic has a different storyline in every game
And I still find it hilarious that people think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is really a new game. Sonic tries to appeal to its audience by trying to do new things. Mario sticks with the old and does nothing different, if you haven't realised. Some people can't get over the fact 7s and 8s out of 10 are good games rather than them having to be 11/10 AND have to be 16-bit, side scrolling, old format, original levels, oh, and without ripping off the original games.
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Old 04-08-2011   #67
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And I still find it hilarious that people think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is really a new game. Sonic tries to appeal to its audience by trying to do new things. Mario sticks with the old and does nothing different, if you haven't realised. Some people can't get over the fact 7s and 8s out of 10 are good games rather than them having to be 11/10 AND have to be 16-bit, side scrolling, old format, original levels, oh, and without ripping off the original games.
Except Nintendo sticks to the traditional Mario formula because it works. Why try to fix something that isn't broken?...which is what happened with Sonic, arguably.
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Old 04-08-2011   #68
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And I still find it hilarious that people think Super Mario Galaxy 2 is really a new game. Sonic tries to appeal to its audience by trying to do new things. Mario sticks with the old and does nothing different, if you haven't realised.
I really don't think anything could be further from the truth. Mario has done massive sweeping changes in its gameplay over the years, completely changing to suit new technology. He went from defining the 2D platformer to inventing map screens, creating the entire concept of a hub world and an exploration-based 3D platformer, and then perfected the obstacle course style of 3D platformer...in space.

I suspect you just don't think about these changes because they happened naturally and unlike Sonic's massive changes over the years, were actually well thought out and well executed. Mario never had any physical attacks in the 2D titles, but then in Super Mario 64 they added a huge variety of punches, kicks, slides, and a massive variety of different jumps. They also removed large parts of the classic Mario gameplay, such as breaking blocks as a gameplay mechanic. Instead of trying to force the original Mario design into three dimensions (which wouldn't have worked), they came up with a NEW design with a new overall vision, and then built a game around it. To be honest, the only real thing that connects SM64 to SMW is the character Mario and the creative theme of the game world. The gameplay itself is completely different. Also, Super Mario Galaxy changes everything yet again, because while SM64 uses exploration as the central gameplay mechanic, SMG returns to a more classic platformer design of challenging the player to complete obstacle courses.

Now look at Sonic's transition into 3D. Classic Sonic gameplay, like classic Mario gameplay, doesn't really work in 3D, so they changed the gameplay in Sonic Adventure 1 to...well, just about everything they could think of. There is basically no overall vision to SA1; instead, it's a giant mess of what seems to be every idea the development team had, ranging from linear races to a rail shooter to a fishing minigame. This just doesn't work, and generates a game that by design feels schizophrenic. As they've moved on from SA1, they've continued to make the same mistake over and over and over again, coming up with gimmicky idea after gimmicky idea to get the attention of players, while ignoring the problem that there really isn't any substance underneath any of it. SA2 continues to have multiple play styles while only adding polish to small segments of it. Sonic Heroes has multiple play styles that you constantly have to switch between (but don't really add anything except "use mode X in situation Y"). Sonic 2K6...well you get the damn point.
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Old 04-08-2011   #69
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I haven't played Sonic Colors since I don't have a Wii. Sonic Heroes was the last 3D Sonic game I played. Only thing I've tried since then is Sonic 4.
There is your problem. Sonic Colors "broke" the Sonic cycle and has been recognized as the best Sonic game ever made since the classics.
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Old 04-08-2011   #70
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There is your problem. Sonic Colors "broke" the Sonic cycle and has been recognized as the best Sonic game ever made since the classics.
Which I don't understand why, considering it falls into most of the traps the previous games did with regards to design, and has one of the worst finishing zones of any Sonic game to date to boot (Terminal Velocity).

Sonic 4 was much better, yet it gets shafted for minor nuances.
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Old 04-08-2011   #71
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I'm intrigued but wary right now. As much as I love the fanservice in the idea of a playable Classic Sonic in a 3D game, we know very little about how the game will play to make any valued judgements.

Although as somebody who enjoyed Sonic Colours and Sonic 4 despite their flaws, I expect this game will entertain me regardless. However, as I lack an Xbox360 or a PS3 I may not get to play it anyway.

But I have to agree with some of the sentiments in this topic, this really has come a bit too late. Why has it taken 13 years for Sega to try and fix the issues with their mascot character? Assuming this is an attempt to try and fix the issues in the long term and not a 20th anniversary one time special anyway.

On an unrelated note, now that we have a name for the game I suppose the topic title needs changing.
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Old 04-08-2011   #72
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Which I don't understand why, considering it falls into most of the traps the previous games did with regards to design, and has one of the worst finishing zones of any Sonic game to date to boot (Terminal Velocity).

Sonic 4 was much better, yet it gets shafted for minor nuances.
Well, maybe it helps that Colors isn't Sonic 2 with the number 4 taped over the cover. You know, little things like that. Also, yes. We know you don't like Colors. You can stop reminding us. Please.

(And while I'm at it, the physics in this better be fucking amazing.)

On topic. I wonder if they're going to give C. Sonic voice acting. I'd prefer he stay mute, but I dunno, there's always the chance they'll bring back Jaleel. It'd sure be a big step up over what he's doing for work now, anyway.

...I really need to see Megashark VS Crocosaurus, now that I think about it.
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Last edited by Bobinator; 04-08-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 04-08-2011   #73
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Originally Posted by SSNTails View Post
Sonic Advance is "hold right to win"... I even tested this on a couple stages by closing my eyes, holding right and mashing the jump button now and then.
...Which Sonic Advance are you talking about? Sonic Advance 2?
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Old 04-08-2011   #74
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My understanding is that Sonic Colors is the Super Mario 64 to the Sonic 3&K's Super Mario World - more or less completely abandon the core gameplay of the older title to focus on a new single gameplay idea, polish it to a shine and release it. Obviously Colors isn't as genre-defining as Super Mario 64 was, and probably not even as good, but it's got a decent amount of cynics turning their heads, which is somewhat surprising. I should probably pick it up, it's $20 on Amazon...

What's disturbing is that it took us until 2010 to reach this conclusion (well, more like 2008, since Colors is just Unleashed's daytime stages tweaked), and perhaps what's even more disturbing is that their attempt to do a proper throwback was bogged down by really glaring physics issues that would be obvious to anyone, even those who hadn't played the originals before. Sonic accelerates extremely slowly and decelerates extremely quickly (when typically the reverse was true). Decelerating happens during circumstances wherein it shouldn't (rolling, spin dashing, being in mid-air). Running down hills is faster than rolling down them. You can stand on walls if you play the cards right. It was enjoyable, I thought, and if the physics were right I'd even go so far as to call it very good, but as it stands I'd be hard-pressed to consider it worthy of the moniker "Sonic 4" when there was so much wrong with it.

As for this game... man, Classic Sonic looks good in 3D. That's all I can say. No, really, that's all I can say because all we have is a CG teaser that shows shit-all in terms of gameplay or concept or anything that would actually make me want to go out of the way to play the game. While it's awesome that the aesthetic is to my liking, good aesthetics alone do not a good game make (evidence: virtually every Sonic game since Heroes, which have excellent music and generally really good visuals, but awful gameplay renders both moot points). Show me actual content and maybe I'll be able to weigh in with actual opinions. As it is, I'm probably going to pay as much attention to this as I paid Colors, ie: none whatsoever.
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Old 04-08-2011   #75
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Sonic accelerates extremely slowly and decelerates extremely quickly (when typically the reverse was true).
Excuse me, hold on.

What?

Sonic's deceleration speed in the classic games is around eleven times faster than his acceleration speed. Specifically, 0.046875 pixels per frame for acceleration, 0.5 pixels per frame for deceleration. Under no circumstances was acceleration EVER faster than deceleration.

In fact, having the reverse be true would be bad design. It would make controlling Sonic to keep him on platforms incredibly hellish.

I won't comment on improper deceleration, it is a little bit of an issue (but nowhere near as bad as people make it).

I'm not sure where you heard running down hills is faster than rolling down them, Parax's IL runs of Sonic 4 seem to show otherwise?

Also, you could stand on walls in the classics if you play the cards right just as well.

Last edited by K.S.; 04-08-2011 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 04-08-2011   #76
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Guys, seriously, of all characters in the gaming industry to compare with Sonic, you just had to choose Mario, his "rival". It's just like comparing good to evil, or ying to yang, or whatever is opposite to each other: They are going completely different ways. Mario games are most of the time the same "good ol'" platforming style, while the Sonic games are varying the gaming experience. Also keep your "gimmicky" rants for yourself. As long as they work and give the player fun, gimmicks shouldn't be treated like that.
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Old 04-08-2011   #77
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When I looked on the facebook page, I laughed at all of the Sonic Jr comments...
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Old 04-08-2011   #78
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Originally Posted by MI
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Originally Posted by The mighty SSN
Sonic Advance is "hold right to win"... I even tested this on a couple stages by closing my eyes, holding right and mashing the jump button now and then.

...Which Sonic Advance are you talking about? Sonic Advance 2?
That's a good question. Sonic Advance 2 may have fell into that trap, but Sonic Advance 1, which seems to be largely ignored, was, I might even say, worthy of the name "Sonic 4". A lot of the levels had design in them, especially Egg Rocket Zone. 3, on the other hand... That was just kind of weird.
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Old 04-08-2011   #79
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Originally Posted by 犬夜叉 View Post
Sonic's deceleration speed in the classic games is around eleven times faster than his acceleration speed. Specifically, 0.046875 pixels per frame for acceleration, 0.5 pixels per frame for deceleration. Under no circumstances was acceleration EVER faster than deceleration.

In fact, having the reverse be true would be bad design. It would make controlling Sonic to keep him on platforms incredibly hellish.
I looked into the subject, and it turns out we're both wrong. Sonic does not accelerate faster than he decelerates, but on the flip-side, he doesn't accelerate slower, either: Sonic decelerates at the exact same speed he accelerates.

Now, when you're actively pushing against the direction you're already going, then your figure is correct. I was not talking about that, I was talking about the natural friction you get by letting go of the button. You can't deny that in Sonic 4, you do that and you're stopped dead in like a second, whereas it took you several seconds to get up to that speed (spin dash, homing attack or speed booster notwithstanding).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 犬夜叉 View Post
Also, you could stand on walls in the classics if you play the cards right just as well.
Prove it. I can't think of any scenario where you're standing perpendicular to the force of gravity where the game says "well, that's totally legal, let him stay there".
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Old 04-08-2011   #80
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It may be a "hold right to win" game, but I sure had a hell of a fun playing it. Plus the level design is nowhere near bland.

Sometimes the simplest things can be the best.

EDIT:
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Prove it. I can't think of any scenario where you're standing perpendicular to the force of gravity where the game says "well, that's totally legal, let him stay there".
You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze582...eature=related

Last edited by Sergeant Brown; 04-08-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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