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Old 10-06-2009   #1
Flame
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Default A what-if case scenario: Gender swaped clone

Need I say it again, this is being a what-if case scenario;
In your parents refusal to grant your wish of a little sister/brother, you instead counted on trying to make a gender swaped clone of yourself. You manage to succeed, but in doing so, you have also inadvertently transplanted a copy of your memories to him/her.

If I were put in this situation, I'd have to go along the lines with saying the following;
In a nutshell, I'd be worried about how this would work out in the end.

How would I explain this person to people? She would have no identity, no birth certificate -- she wouldn't even be a legal citizen. It's not like I'd have the power to magically whip up all these documents.

Also, if she were really a copy of me with all of my memories and knowledge that she's a clone, I'm sure she'd be kind of mentally unstable (In a sense, how would YOU feel knowing everything you thought was real was planted in your head and experienced by someone else?) and trying to "hide in closet", so to speak, would probably suck, and (considering she's me) she probably wouldn't go for it, either. It'd be boring hiding around trying to avoid people for 8+ hours a day while I'm gone. Granted, being me, she'd probably browse the internet while I'm away.

To expand on this further, because for some reason it's really interesting to think about, I would feel the need to take up the role of an emotional mediator. I would either lie and say I didn't create her on purpose, but that I'm happy she's here, or modify this entire scenario so that it was a spontaneous thing "out of thin air" as opposed to an on-purpose cloning.

I'd try and be as accommodating as possible and give her someone to confide in -- try and help her to find her niche in the world, being such an irregular existence. I'm sure I'd become sexually attracted to her eventually, but I am a pretty friendly guy (In all seriousness) and I'd repress my inner urge to want to have sex with her constantly because it would probably scar her considerably. Since this is not a realistic scenario, I'd have to try hard to imagine and predict my mindset as a female, which of course would be difficult.

I'd also try and spend as much time with her as I could, in order to forge a strong relationship. I'd sure as hell be a lot less bored, that's for sure. Sharing a computer would be rather difficult. But yes, Whatever happens from there, I really don't know.

Since I had explained my opinion on what I would do, I'd love to get thoughts on what would you do with your gender swapped clone?
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Last edited by Flame; 10-06-2009 at 02:29 AM. Reason: Typos
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Old 10-06-2009   #2
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Reminds me of Kingdom Hearts. Roxas is a nobody of Sora. And Xion is a puppet of Sora/Roxas. Roxas IS shoved away from the rest of the world. Hidden! Roxas and Xion have all Soras memories. Though, they are not mentally unstable.

But, transferring memories means Sora loses his. So it doesn't work out. You can't live at the same time.

Yes, I'm obsessed with Kingdom Hearts atm.
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Old 10-06-2009   #3
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Pardon my French, but holy hell Flame, look at the mess you've gotten yourself into!

I'm nowhere near as philosophical as you, so my response will likely be lacking, but bear with me. First of all, I want to challenge your assertion that your gender-swapped clone would "have no identity" or wouldn't be "a legal citizen". Now, even though your clone is genetically identical to you and may have all your innate behaviors, he or she would have to be an entirely different individual. As a seperate person, s/he would likely have different experiences, especially considering that this clone is your opposite gender and thus would probably be inclined to persue different activities and different people in his/her persuit of social acceptance, which will cause your clone's personality and identity to be different from your own. Also, the mere fact that your clone is the opposite gender will guarantee that he or she will turn out different, what with the different levels of testosterone and estrogen surging through the clone's body and affecting their development and behavior.

The subject of clone citizenship is indeed an uncertain issue, especially considering that the courts have yet to rule on the issue. And of course, the verdict could vary from country to country. I'll look at the issue from the standpoint of a United States citizen, since that's the position I've been in throughout my entire life. Looking at the 14th Amendment, I quote:

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." (ripped from Wikipedia, of all places...)

So, it seems, at least to me, that in order to exist in the first place, your clone must somehow be created and born. Whether this birth is by the conventional means or something more unorthodox (say, from a "Cloning Machine" that spits out fully-grown clones) is irrelevent, because the point is that your clone was born in the first place, so it seems to me that he or she would qualify for citizenship, if born in American territory, at least. I think another interesting legal question to ponder is "if your clone goes out and commits a crime, are you also to be held legally responsible?" Not only does your clone arguably have your very motives, but as your clone's creator and mentor, I imagine that the courts would assume that you'd be responsible for ensuring that it behaved in a lawful manner.

Believe it or not, I've pondered the question of whether a altered-gender-clone relationship is desirable, but I've never had the guts to confess these thoughts. It's interesting to think whether this type of relationship would be viable or not, because it ultimately depends on what people look for in a relationship. Let's say that everybody is narcissistic and essentially love themselves, and thus seek to form relationships with others who are similar to themselves. In this case, love would probably blossom between you and your clone, being the natural course of things. On the other hand, let's say that humans try to find mates that contrast their personalities, following the saying that "opposits attract". This this case, love (outside of the mutual affection that siblings and family usually feel for one another) is not likely to occur between you and your clone. Personally, I think that the degrees of attraction between humans are never as polarized as these examples presume, and that different people seek for different degrees of similiarity in a romantic partner. Therefore, I do not believe that the question of whether or not attraction can occur between opposite sex (or even same sex) clones can be answered theoretically. I know this sounds mushy, but love is an incredibly irrational emotion that is hard to logically pin down in any case.

All I can say is, if you and your clone decide to settle down and start a clone family, be ready for the consequences of extreme inbreeding (there will likely be more toes on your childrens' feet than you can count with both sets of your fingers).

If not for the rather far-fetched nature of this topic, I'd say it'd be almost more appropriate to be in the Colosseum.
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Old 10-06-2009   #4
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If I were to have a gender-swapped clone of myself under those conditions, the first thing we would do is have sex. No questions asked. Afterwards I would probably be the nice guy I am to her, and she'd be a female me. We'd dance all over the legal crap, maybe get some documents forged or something, and just live our lives.

Yeah, there'd be lots of sex.
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Old 10-06-2009   #5
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http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2002-07-29
Guy gets zaps in a female form by his "best" friend's ray gun, ray gun broken after use, stuck as a girl for a while, they hear of a diamond thst can undo "curses", but just splits him/her into two bodies, (uncursed) male and (cursesd) female form, both have with the same memories up to that point.
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Old 10-06-2009   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wombatwarlord777 View Post
First of all, I want to challenge your assertion that your gender-swapped clone would "have no identity" or wouldn't be "a legal citizen". Now, even though your clone is genetically identical to you and may have all your innate behaviors, he or she would have to be an entirely different individual. As a seperate person, s/he would likely have different experiences, especially considering that this clone is your opposite gender and thus would probably be inclined to persue different activities and different people in his/her persuit of social acceptance, which will cause your clone's personality and identity to be different from your own. Also, the mere fact that your clone is the opposite gender will guarantee that he or she will turn out different, what with the different levels of testosterone and estrogen surging through the clone's body and affecting their development and behavior.
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Originally Posted by Wombatwarlord777 View Post
So, it seems, at least to me, that in order to exist in the first place, your clone must somehow be created and born. Whether this birth is by the conventional means or something more unorthodox (say, a "Cloning Machine" that spits out fully-growth clones) is irrelevant, because the point is that your clone was born in the first place, so it seems to me that he or she would qualify for citizenship, if born in American territory, at least. I think another interesting legal question to ponder is "if your clone goes out and commits a crime, are you also to be held legally responsible?" Not only does your clone arguably have your very motives, but as your clone's creator and mentor, I imagine that the courts would assume that you'd be responsible for ensuring that it behaved in a lawful manner.
I can positively say that you're looking at this from a different perspective than I am. Regarding the legal standards of it, it's rather difficult to respond to such a message since the issue of cloning is a progressing issue even in todays world.

Being a mentor of any kind, if my clone was to get involved with the legal system (Hypothetically of course), I'm unsure whether or not she'd be able to successfully say that I'm responsible for her actions. Being that she would be 18 (Since I'm that age, I can only presume), she would be classified as an adult under legal terms and therefore be responsible for her own actions.
You might say I'm viewing this as a "He said, she said" type of situation which doesn't really fly in most cases unless definite proof is shown. Though I'm inclined to say that people of female stature might have the upper hand in court situations just because of their sex, even while the law says every person should be treated as equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GigaX
If I were to have a gender-swapped clone of myself under those conditions, the first thing we would do is have sex. <...>
In all honesty, I was expecting a post like this to come up sooner or later.


EDIT; Also, I think you guys aren't really understanding what I have written.
What I was aiming for was the opinions of many people. much like my opinion which I have stated on the basis of what would you do with your gender swapped clone?

Again in all honesty, GigaX's post was probably the closest to answering the question to what I had asked of the community.
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Last edited by Flame; 10-06-2009 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 10-06-2009   #7
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I never answered, just shared fanboyism. :p

What I would do with my replica is have a fight. Which one of us is stronger?...
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Old 10-06-2009   #8
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Gender swapped clone?

Well, the first thing we'd do is locate our arms in storage devices. That, and a spirit quest may or may not have been involved prior to the event, so we may actually know that we do indeed have arms already, and we are idiots, whether or not said quest happened.

...Okay, honestly? After trying to figure out HOw this could happen and see if we could do any MORE stupid crap with whatever caused it, we'd try to lay low and just hang out. Not much else we'd like to do anyways. But if she's anything like me (Which of course she is), we'd like our space too. The only real issue is trying to keep it hidden; Having a gender swapped clone can raise an awful lot of questions from the government, and we DEFINITELY wouldn't want that kind of publicity...Oh, and having another mouth to feed and ANOTHER diabetic, which is more of a pain in the ass in terms of medical bills than any actual treat to our health.
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Old 10-06-2009   #9
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I might have to follow GaiaX on the whole lots of sex thing. Seriously. Of course, both of us might want to get fixed, too. Beats the hell out of masturbation regardless.

On the much more serious note, though, I wouldn't doubt that there'd be almost no communication between us. We might discuss how each other's day went as we switch roles for our jobs (or depending on the task, double up!), but that's it. I have had two PCs now for a few months so even our Internet workload could be split evenly. Even get commissions done easier and take on much more work... or just goof off more and refine our gaming skills through each other. :P

I really have to say though that (unrealistically) I've been waiting for that day to come. Even having a double of EITHER gender handy would make life so much easier. ... Just that a female double would be much more desired.
I may not like to look at myself in the mirror often, but it's just a tic different when you're not you. :P

EDIT: Oh, gods, the Mountain Dew consumption in the place would get EXPENSIVE...

Last edited by Project Dark Fox; 10-06-2009 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 10-06-2009   #10
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I'd be annoyed that the perfect person for me is of the same DNA and therefore I'd feel morally obliged to not get into a relationship with them.

It'd feel weird.
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Old 10-06-2009   #11
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Oh, I read a comic about this once.

It was greaaaaaaat.
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Old 10-06-2009   #12
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Well, upon the autopsy, they would discover that my clone was not me(For obvious reasons) so I couldn't do anything illegal which eventually leads up to me faking my death and running off to Lima Peru.
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Old 10-07-2009   #13
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I don't think we'd get past complimenting each other's sexiness before her accelerated metabolism burned out and she died.
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Old 10-08-2009   #14
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She would be more like my sis for me and I would Treat her as a Sis not as a Clone.
and yeah ...I'd Play Pes 2009 all day with her XD
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Old 10-08-2009   #15
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In all honesty I was expecting EGS to come up sooner or later. And a female clone of me would simply be weird. Full stop.

If there's a man for that job, it as sure as hell isn't me.
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Old 10-08-2009   #16
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Unless you enjoy suicides or paying for costly transitions for the lucky(?) few who can somehow stay mentally stable in the wrong body, this probably would never be a very good idea.
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Old 10-08-2009   #17
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I will now reply to all points of particular interest in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Flame View Post
Need I say it again, this is being a what-if case scenario;
In your parents refusal to grant your wish of a little sister/brother, you instead counted on trying to make a gender-swapped clone of yourself. You manage to succeed, but in doing so, you have also inadvertently transplanted a copy of your memories to him/her.
Well, that would give me someone to confide in, as they understand how I think, and thus know how to comfort me in the event of some sort of disaster.

Quote:
How would I explain this person to people? She would have no identity, no birth certificate -- she wouldn't even be a legal citizen. It's not like I'd have the power to magically whip up all these documents.
It's really only a matter of breaking into a hospital (or wherever all these documents are filled out) and filling out a set for them. Legal US citizenship is granted to anyone born in the US immediately, meaning she would not be a problem for the US gov't until something happened. Somebody at my school can hack into the database and create an enrollment record for her; if they don't believe the cliched "cousin from Kansas" story that is. :P

Quote:
Also, if she were really a copy of me with all of my memories and knowledge that she's a clone, I'm sure she'd be kind of mentally unstable (In a sense, how would YOU feel knowing everything you thought was real was planted in your head and experienced by someone else?) and trying to "hide in closet", so to speak, would probably suck, and (considering she's me) she probably wouldn't go for it, either. It'd be boring hiding around trying to avoid people for 8+ hours a day while I'm gone. Granted, being me, she'd probably browse the internet while I'm away.

To expand on this further, because for some reason it's really interesting to think about, I would feel the need to take up the role of an emotional mediator. I would either lie and say I didn't create her on purpose, but that I'm happy she's here, or modify this entire scenario so that it was a spontaneous thing "out of thin air" as opposed to an on-purpose cloning.
(Wow, this reply has a lot of repetition) Again, in the event of disaster the clone could comfort me in the crisis, and I can help the clone deal with the concept of her existence.
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I'd try and be as accommodating as possible and give her someone to confide in -- try and help her to find her niche in the world, being such an irregular existence.
As I said before, once you've taken care of all the legal bull****, and you've helped her to be more stable of mind, The confiding could go both ways.
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I'm sure I'd become sexually attracted to her eventually,
Same can likely be said of all inter-gender relationships.
Quote:
but I am a pretty friendly guy (In all seriousness) and I'd repress my inner urge to want to have sex with her constantly because it would probably scar her considerably. Since this is not a realistic scenario, I'd have to try hard to imagine and predict my mindset as a female, which of course would be difficult.
I agree that it would be difficult, as if you manage to break the gender-based mental barrier, you will be the greatest male on the planet at that particular moment.

Quote:
I'd also try and spend as much time with her as I could, in order to forge a strong relationship. I'd sure as hell be a lot less bored, that's for sure. Sharing a computer would be rather difficult. But yes, Whatever happens from there, I really don't know.
Considering that the clone has all your memories and knowledge, they would basically have the same personality as well, give or take subtle variances due to the gender difference.
It's always easier to find things to do with someone than to do alone. Humans just seem to react that way towards competition and/or companionship. I'd finally be able to beat more than just Contra in the series without cheats if I had a partner. Hell, the two of us would be great as a team because by having such similar identities, we would be able to read each other like a book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GigaX View Post
If I were to have a gender-swapped clone of myself under those conditions, the first thing we would do is have sex. No questions asked. Afterwards I would probably be the nice guy I am to her, and she'd be a female me. We'd dance all over the legal crap, maybe get some documents forged or something, and just live our lives.

Yeah, there'd be lots of sex.
But as a clone, even if it's female, that's like a twin sister (with age-progression matching the two biological ages). But hey, if you're into that kind of thing...

Now, going on my own for this part, I'd imagine that such a scenario would result in the supposed "Twin Telepathy" phenomenon occurring between myself and the clone. We'd likely be able to know when the other needed help, and thus we'd each come to the aid of the other if possible. We obviously wouldn't do this on tests or anything, as that is against my morals, and since she had a copy of my mind, it would be against the clone's as well.
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Old 10-08-2009   #18
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Originally Posted by Penopat View Post
Unless you enjoy suicides or paying for costly transitions for the lucky(?) few who can somehow stay mentally stable in the wrong body, this probably would never be a very good idea.
If I woke up with the wrong set of genitalia one day, I really wouldn't care. My clone would be a little more freaked out that she's he, and he's there, and even then it wouldn't be a big fuss. Most other people on the other hand...
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Old 10-08-2009   #19
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If I had a female clone of myself?
Once I got past telling her she's a clone and helping her get through that, we could be best buddies who share the same interests. I probably won't be attracted to her, because she'll most likely just look like with boobs and no schlong. That, and what if it didn't work out?
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Old 10-09-2009   #20
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Originally Posted by Cue View Post
I'd be annoyed that the perfect person for me is of the same DNA and therefore I'd feel morally obliged to not get into a relationship with them.

It'd feel weird.
^THAT
and think of all the Genetic defects of you clone-bred children. UGH!
Yeah, I'd take more of a big-brother role.
EDIT: I think said defects would be even worse than if you were to say, **** your sister.
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