Should Super Forms be in Single Player/Coop?

Mystic said:

I wouldn't mind seeing it as a Pandora's Box option for entertainment, actually.

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this.
...But since having ringslinger on also spawns weapon panels/ammo, does that mean the custom powerup linedef that can give you multiplayer emeralds (supposidly) mean you can put that on, run over the linedef to get them all, and Super as anyone?

Pandora's Box isn't supposed to be logical, dude.

I like the Pandora's Box idea :3, also I noticed that Tails and Knuckles have abilities while super in match, Tails have a high whirlind jump and Knuckles have multiglide, will super abilities be available for custom characters?

I think it's about time I say something. Sorry Ground, but it includes Tails and Knuckles, too.

It is true that in the games Super Sonic is a reward for collecting all of the emeralds as Sonic. Hasn't that concept been overused to death, though? I personally thought Super Tails and Super/Hyper Knuckles were one of the greatest additions to S3&K. The only true difference besides abilities was that you could play an extra level as Super/Hyper Sonic, while Tails and Knuckles play the levels they have access to, regardless of emerald count. Thus, I would actually suggest to bring them back in future games, since it is refreshing to see someone else besides Sonic use the emeralds. Super Sonic is nothing more than advancing the storyline now. Although he is the main star of the games, I do think the games are focusing a little too much on Sonic and not trying to further develop some other key characters (I'll say Eggman, for example, we don't really know much about him other than he's still trying to dominate the world). This has made me dislike Sonic a little more, although he is my second favorite Sonic series character next to Tails. At this rate, though, my feelings will put him below Knuckles as well.

The way this game is being developed, either Sonic only, as the developers of this game seriously intend to keep it as, or ALL characters like last version with an option to disable super forms in Co-Op. Who cares about Single Player Super forms anyway? Collecting the emeralds is tough, even as Tails, so there should be a reward besides extra lives. Otherwise, why bother collecting the emeralds in the first place if only Sonic can use them? For those that are trying to say Super forms will make the game too easy, just how long have you been playing the game without such powers? If you don't want to turn Super in Co-Op, don't collect 50 rings, simple. The lives reset themselves anyway, so you don't need to collect more than 100 rings, cause it's just a wasted effort anyway. The fact the lives reset, though, makes emerald collecting for Tails and Knuckles POINTLESS except to help out their fellow Sonic players.

I really would like for this discussion to end, as I can plainly see now you guys are following the same path as Sega, glory to Sonic only, Tails and Knuckles are fillers, like all characters except for Eggman. Back in the Genesis days, fans loved Tails, though not as much for Knuckles, yet both of them seem to just be spectators to Sonic now. It is true I am slightly obsessed with Tails, but I speak for both Tails and Knuckles now, which you guys took time to add them in the game, when you could have just had Sonic only. Give the two of them some more love, developers, and let's end the Super forms discussion. Namely, give them the ability to become super so this discussion will end, but also have an option as to disable super forms completely or allow just Sonic to become super. On this view, I support both options, actually.

In summary, allow Tails, Knuckles, and character wads to become super, like last version, but allow an option to disable them if the host feels they are overpowered. If the players don't like the fact super forms are disabled in Co-Op, then they can find another server. Sonic has too much love for being a main character. At least Nintendo tried to spread the love to everyone and not just Mario, and now we have characters like Fawful in the Mario series. Why can't Sega do the same?

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Epic Win , I love you Metal Kirby :3

I think only character with super transform can use super transform out of Match...in COOP or Single.

Like Metal Sonic or Shadow2.0 or any other that use Super form.

Tails and knux don't have Super form...they only gets gold...So why would they be able to be super?

I think Super transform should be alowed in COOP. Because i want to see What they can do in Single or COOP.

Many wad have been released.Some Have super and some don't.

Why characters that can use Super can't in COOP? I don't know...

It would be fun to see super form in any kind of game(Hide and seek useless for this)

I agree that it is unfair , but it still fun!!

I WANT TO USE SUPER IN COOP WOOT!!!

Then continue debating...I gived my opinion!

Actually, the part of the design documentation that stated only Sonic of the main three characters could go Super was written in 1998, when the thok was still called the "Air Spin Attack" and Sonic Adventure hadn't even been released yet.

Here is the actual text, from the original design document (Pardon the weird formatting, it's due to the way the TUDD is structured):

The Ultimate Design Document said:

Sonic the Hedgehog
The blue streak returns again, ready to tackle Eggman and his robots. Definitely the quickest of all the three, but also the least versatile. He will find several areas inaccessible and must find new routes around them. That's not to say he's not learned anything since last time. He has a special 'Air Spin Attack' move, allowing him to shoot forwards at high speeds, aiding him in longer jumps and giving him automatic acceleration.
MAX. SPEED :
JUMP HEIGHT:
ABILITIES: * Air Spin Attack (fires Sonic forward at max object movement speed)
* Changes into Super Sonic with 7 emeralds and 50 rings.
Miles 'Tails' Prower
Having missed his first chance to help Sonic back in Sonic Robo Blast I, he is more than ready to help Sonic this time round, while nowhere near as fast as Sonic, he has his flying skill, which will help him over longer jumps and reach new areas.
MAX. SPEED :
JUMP HEIGHT:
ABILITIES: * Fly (for a limited time only).
Knuckles the Echidna
Having played a minor role in stopping Eggman from the original Sonic Robo Blast, he returns to put Eggman out of commission once and for all. While he lacks Sonic's speed, barely faster than Tails, he retains his climbing and gliding skill, though Knuckles has problems climbing on some surfaces, such as slippery moss or hard metal, but he makes up by being able to attack enemies with his glide!
MAX. SPEED :
JUMP HEIGHT:
ABILITIES: * Glide.
* Climb (up certain walls only).
Super Sonic
When Sonic obtains seven emeralds, he turns into the powerful Super Sonic. Charged with Chaos energy, he is not only much faster than the original Sonic, but he is also invulnerable to boot!
MAX. SPEED : Not too fast for playability reasons.
Mystic’s Note: But please make it too fast for most =P
JUMP HEIGHT:
ABILITIES: * Invulnerability.
* Double Jump.
<Small bit of text removed due to spoiler content>
Mystic’s Note: I can’t help but notice that this information is woefully out of date. When was the double jump replaced by floating, out of curiousity?

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Notice how it, even in 1998, specifically said only Sonic got to go Super. Now, custom characters were obviously outside of this, but when we allowed custom characters to go Super, every custom character went Super, so we're going back to the original design for more simple design.

Now, some people are saying we're going the Sonic Adventure style of leaving Tails and Knuckles as supporting characters, but I'd say that's already pretty obviously not the case. There are areas in SRB2, like S3K, that Sonic cannot reach. Knuckles is forced into a few paths for him only (or frequently Tails if he's clever). This is definitely not the "design entirely different content for Tails/Knuckles" method that SA1 and SA2 use. I don't see how Tails and Knuckles are "filler" or useless in SRB2 simply because we don't let them go Super. They have completely different abilities and play styles than Sonic. They can reach areas Sonic can't and approach hazards with a completely different point of view. Part of Sonic's play style is the ability to go Super. We use different mechanics for Tails and Knuckles, because it adds variety. Playing as Tails and Knuckles with all the emeralds in S3K feels exactly the same as Sonic, as it trivializes the abilities that make Tails and Knuckles interesting to begin with. That's definitely not the case in SRB2.

MetalKirby said:

In summary, allow Tails, Knuckles, and character wads to become super, like last version, ...

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Tails and Knuckles have NEVER been able to go Super in SRB2. In fact, this is the first version where they can at all, thanks to the new match system.

As I said...I think only Character that CAN transform in Super can use it in COOP or Single...It would be fun...Etc.

Tails can fly...knux can climb...But sonic can just go faster...This is why he has a Super form.Like all Hero XD.

1. I think MetalKirby has given a idea of middle ground, and the developers really need to consider it.

2.

Mystic said:

MetalKirby said:

In summary, allow Tails, Knuckles, and character wads to become super, like last version,

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Tails and Knuckles have NEVER been able to go Super in SRB2. In fact, this is the first version where they can at all, thanks to the new match system.

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Mystic, it was pretty obvious what he meant. This makes you sound a bit like a jerk. If your gonna quote someone, it is really rude to point out a grammar error(the way you did, it is okay if someone is nice). and not even showed what came after,

MetalKirby said:

but allow an option to disable them if the host feels they are overpowered.

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Oh, and if you temp-strike(not saying you will, but I'm not sure what kind of mod you are) me for "back-seat modding", that just proves the point.

It's not a grammar error, Goddratini. Read it again. I didn't show what came after because I wasn't responding to the rest of the sentence.

We are considering giving an option in Pandora's Box to do this, but don't ever expect Super form for characters other than Sonic outside of match to happen unless you're using some kind of cheat code. This has been the design for 11 years and we're not changing it now because a bunch of people on the forums don't like it.

Well, if there is gonna be this option for Pandora's Box, I would be happy, but what would make me even more happier is super abilities for custom characters (cuz since sonic flies, tails uses whirlind jump and knuckles have multiglide, I want to have super abilities for custom characters)

Actually, I think Superforms should be in COOP, but NOT Single Player.

How many times do you see players who ALL the time played as Knuckles, Tails, or any custom character switch to Sonic ONLY when all the emeralds are there? It's extremely annoying to see everyone switch character to Sonic just because he can now go super. Face it, super isn't anything special. SEGA made it that way, netgames made it that way, the amount of time most of us have been playing this and many other Sonic games made it that way.

In Single Player, you're forced to be Sonic if ya choose his skin, forced to take his challenges. If Tails can go Super THERE, there's no reason to ever play as Sonic and collect the emeralds if you can do it the easy way. In netgames, one way or another, there'll be Tails and Knuckles player switches, setrings, whatever can be done to EASILY get the emeralds, since you don't unlock anything anyways. THEN they'll switch to Sonic since he's the only allowed to go Super.

In Single Player, people should have a motivation to be a harder to use character, since you're forced to be that character for the rest of your quest. You CAN't switch to Tails anytime of the day for 1 second to get past a hard obstacle. Super Sonic IS the motivation for players to be Sonic in the first place.

In netgames, people will be lazy anyhow with the best character. And once Super Sonic is unlocked through easy Tails or Knuckles emerald collecting, they'll simply switch to Sonic for the mere purpose of Super Sonic, not because they're a Sonic player.

I say coop gets a superform for all, and single player maybe a devmode cheat or Pandora's box thingy or something to play around with. Super Sonic isn't that special anymore. SEGA made it that way, the amount of supers in ANY Sonic game made it that way, the amount of time we've seen and been Super by now, and putting Super in match and CTF mode helped to it. It's not making Super Sonic look special by making Super for Sonic-only, it's just making the game feel limited.

In 1P, keep it as reward for playing as a harder character. In anything else, it makes Super Sonic seem LESS special if he's the only one. Imagine 6 Super Sonics in 1 netgame, after all. All thanks to Tails and Knux not having a superform. Real special and rewarding, considering 5 of those players were Tails and Knux ones before.

I... actually kinda agree.

How about the best of both worlds? Add in a new console variable, "allowsuper". Can be set to No, Sonic Only, and All. That way people can define the balance of the game the way they wish.

(Suffice to say, this variable would only take effect in Coop.)

And that is another epic post :3

Well, SMS, that's what a Pandora's Box option would DO, the only difference is that it's considered a cheat code and you could do it in single player as well. No different from setlives.

...Wait, Pandora's Box works in MULTIPLAYER? News to me.

In the current SRB2 version, you can only use throw rings and the ultimate cheat (with no one use it in netgames :l), you can't change the gravity and destroy all the robots

setlives and setrings are also part of Pandora's Box. The thing is that the host needs to have it unlocked for it to work.

The main point I'm trying to get across is, Super Sonic just isn't special anymore, and I never really cared for him that much in SRB2, although I did like the small hover he had. Perhaps a more effective hover could be made for him? SS has been overdone in almost every game since it was first introduced in Sonic 1. I'm simply saying that Super Tails and Super Knuckles were refreshing to see when they appeared in Sonic 3 and Knuckles. I just want you guys to have a little more love for the other characters as well.

But I also want to make emerald collecting worthwhile for both Tails and Knuckles. Even if they don't turn super, couldn't they just get some better abilities for getting all seven emeralds? For instance, if they are in a party with all seven emeralds, Tails would be a tad faster and can fly longer (I'd say an additional two or three seconds, instead of infinite when super), and Knuckles would be a tad faster and can glide a little faster (instead of giving him multi-glide when super). They don't have to be overpowered, but at least give players a reason to play again as their favorite character if they don't want to use Super Sonic. Otherwise, I have no complaints about how Co-Op is run.

Mystic said:

I don't see how Tails and Knuckles are "filler" or useless in SRB2 simply because we don't let them go Super.

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Believe it or not, I was actually thinking more of Match at the time I wrote that. I've noticed that Sonic was given much attention, which is fine, but I felt the other two needed a little more attention, especially Tails. I have noticed now that Knuckles feels a bit more like a beginner character now than he was in the older version, while Tails is simply underpowered overall save for his flying.

In fact, as of late it has been getting to the point where I get frustrated losing to a Sonic player, because I use a very slow character. When it comes to speed, why is there even an acceleration category? Race has not been fun to me anymore, and I really enjoyed SRB2Riders, for example. But it is clear to me now that almost any racing mode is unbalanced. It just seems that the games want Sonic to win everytime over Tails, which is one of the reasons why I'm starting to dislike Sonic more. I will not discuss the Thok here, even though it is the main thing that frustrates me. I will say this much, I will not be doing Race anymore unless it's something different than usual, such as character specific.

I'm not really requesting much changed from the characters, but I do feel Knuckles needs to get buffed just a tad bit to help him against Thokking Sonics, and a more serious buff to Tails, whose only true effective strategy is flying. Maybe a slight fire rate increase? Not as fast as Knuckles, but faster than Sonic's, just to create more of a balance. Otherwise, I think the characters are fine...it's just I'm not starting to enjoy the fierce competition anymore. Anyway, I'm starting to go a bit off-topic here, so I may take this into the suggestions topic in the future.

Sonic still has a lot of love from his fans, but the fact the other two characters, and even some character wads don't have Super abilities, or can't even do anything with the emeralds kind of makes the game a bit more of a chore, because at some point you're forced to play as Sonic regardless of whether or not you play as him or not if you want emerald powers. This would be fine if it was for an unlockable. In fact, I would change the unlock requirement from "Finish 1P with all emeralds" to "Finish 1P with all emeralds as Sonic," since he at least has some use for the emeralds. Otherwise, yeah, it would be a bit too easy with Tails or Knuckles.

Keeping Super Sonic special, and forcing players to play as Super Sonic are two different things. Just look at the games in the series. Which style of Super Sonic gameplay would you rather want, Sonic 1-3, or Sonic Adventure 1-2? That may help in deciding what to do with him.

I know the developers already have a lot on their plate, so just consider changes for right now, but act later after more important work is done, such as finishing the Single Player campaign.

MetalKirby said:

Which style of Super Sonic gameplay would you rather want, Sonic 1-3, or Sonic Adventure 1-2? That may help in deciding what to do with him. .

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What does this have to do with anything?

I don't think the creators are going to change anything just because a few people want them to "share the love" with Tails and Knuckles. They obviously don't deserve it if it takes them almost no effort to get the Emeralds in the first place. There's a difference between being a hard-to-control speed freak and being a slow and easy-maneuverable flying fox. A big difference.