And there is no problem with that train of thought on the official dev team? The room is horrible.
Then make new ones? They're BRICKS, something so easy to make I can't find any excuse not to.
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- Thread starter SSNTails
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Then make new ones? They're BRICKS, something so easy to make I can't find any excuse not to.
I think Mystic underestimates both the volume of people who dislike that room and the intensity with which they loathe it. But he claims that among the people he knows who had played the game for the first time, about half of them loved the room and the other half didn't care and moved on.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to excuse or justify the lack of fitting textures. I'm merely pointing out that the problem isn't with the room itself but with the zone's texturing in general.
Lippa
BONES creator
You've totally lost me, the only way I can get up there is to jump on a bunch of weird rocks that are at the maximum jump height.
This video demonstrates where you have to go. It's done as Tails, but Sonic and Knuckles can take that path too.
Why is a video necessary for something meant to be straightforward though.
It is straightforward. I have no idea why the path wasn't obvious to Lippa from the beginning, and I don't know of anybody who had a similar problem. The fact that one person didn't get doesn't mean it's not straightforward.
Hello there
A quick question in #srb2fun unearthed more people who were confused by that path, and while I have no idea why, the problems seem to revolve around the fountain-ish thing that blocks the view of the ledge with the rings on it, and the rock formation to the right of it that for some reason can be climbed on. Apparently some people thought that they were supposed to jump on those to get to the upper path. My suggestion is to remove those rocks (or at least make it impossible to jump on them like that) and delete the fountain or move it so that it doesn't block the view.
The whole setup doesn't make sense. First off, the actual, intended path has you traveling to the far end of the room, turn right along the wall, backtrack and ultimately cross over the place you just came from. Not only is this unintuitive because you need to go right in order to reach the path that leads to the left, but most players (myself included) will look for a way to get up there immediately, without having to first go forward and then double back. It doesn't help that there's an actual climbable strutcture that will get you up there, faster than the intended path.
Next, the detour to the right is easily missable because your focus is shifted to the left. Even if you didn't notice the overhanging path, the rising water flooding the corridor to the left will immediately grab your attention because it's a much greater contrast with the surrounding terrain. The right portion of the far wall, which you need to follow for the top path, should probably use a different texture as to more easily stand out and immediately convey that there's something different in each half of the room.
Then it doesn't help that even if you notice the detour, you come to a gaping hole in the path. It's right in the middle of an upwards ramp, and if your survival, let along gaming sensibilities are of anything worth, you'll immediately register this as "I'm not supposed to go through here". Add the fact that there's a Knuckles-only path in the room right after this one, and that the stage as a whole is architecturally pretty rough compared to the other levels in the game (except maybe CEZ1), and it's no wonder I never saw this as a viable, let alone intended and correct path for Sonic to take.
EDIT: Okay, granted, the map already uses two different textures on the far wall, but it ends up being ineffective because there's silver rock on the left and mossy tiles on the right, but right in front of where the right path starts there's also a random mass of silver rock in place of a proper staircase, which makes you miss the path split that's right in front of you. So get rid of those rocks in favor of a proper staircase, and also get rid of the rocks at the start which let you bypass the whole thing and we should be golden.
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The fact that the path twists and crosses itself like that wouldn't be a problem if it were obvious that it's the only way to get up there. So the problem is not with the structure of the path itself, it's the fact that a) it's not clearly in view (thanks to the fountain and the silver rocks next to it) and b) the silver rocks look like they might get you up there too (and indeed they do). If you remove the rocks and the fountain, the path becomes unambiguous and clearly visible.
The fact that one path is more apparent than the other is not inherently problematic, but again, if you remove the fountain, the path will be right in front of you and thus hopefully more apparent. Many people will still notice the exit to the left first, but as I said, that's not a problem.
Are you talking about the large gap with the diagonal yellow spring? If so, I assume that has been changed along with the removal of all other springs that rely on SRB2's quirky water physics to work.
Even though I understand your problems with those silver rocks, I find that they draw my attention to the path, not away from it. But either way, a staircase works just as well, if not better.
Sky The Destroyer
Member
This is more of a trivial suggestion, but it's still one, and I think it would be a nice touch if possible.
Basically, I want the weapon's owner to have his/her name on the weapon when used always.
Example (italicized parts are just actions done by the players, and the non-italicized parts are part of the log):
Speeding off to level...
Map is now "MAP84: TWISTED TERMINAL ZONE"
Player 1 grabs some explosion rings.
Player 2 grabs some rings.
Player 1 was hit by Player 2's ring.
Player 2 grabs Player 1's explosion rings.
Player 2 shoots Player 1's explosion rings.
Player 1 was hit by Player 2 with Player 1's explosion ring.
Now, this could get a little weird, (maybe it should be "Player 1 was hit by Player 2 with his own explosion ring") but you get the general idea. I doubt that this'll be implemented, but hey, why not put it out there?
Basically, I want the weapon's owner to have his/her name on the weapon when used always.
Example (italicized parts are just actions done by the players, and the non-italicized parts are part of the log):
Speeding off to level...
Map is now "MAP84: TWISTED TERMINAL ZONE"
Player 1 grabs some explosion rings.
Player 2 grabs some rings.
Player 1 was hit by Player 2's ring.
Player 2 grabs Player 1's explosion rings.
Player 2 shoots Player 1's explosion rings.
Player 1 was hit by Player 2 with Player 1's explosion ring.
Now, this could get a little weird, (maybe it should be "Player 1 was hit by Player 2 with his own explosion ring") but you get the general idea. I doubt that this'll be implemented, but hey, why not put it out there?
Sky The Destroyer
Member
What do you mean? It's just a few extra words. If you're thinking that I'm suggesting that the italicized lines should be added in, that's not what I mean.
What I mean is, if someone (let's say Player 1) grabs an explosion ring and gets hit by someone else (for example, Player 2), the explosion ring should still have Player 1's name on it, so it would be like this if Player 2 uses Player 1's explosion rings against someone else (Player 3, for instance), or something similar to it, at least:
SRB2 Log/Chatbox said:
Again, this probably won't make it in, but I'm just putting it out there.
The gamelogic for projectiles only has a pointer to the person who shot the projectile (target, I think; maybe tracer but I kinda doubt it). The person who grabbed the weapon originally is irrelevant, only who shot it.
In short, this will not happen.
In short, this will not happen.
Eliwood
Member
This could possibly be just me, but I'd like to see some change in some earlier zones, or in Egg Rock Zone itself. What's the problem with it? Well for me, nothing really. I personally like the zone layout, and the challenges are pretty nice for an "end of game" zone. However the way elements of the level are introduced (such as the gravity flip or the disappearing and reappearing platforms) are not placed in safer environments in the level to get you used to going on them. And along with that, due to the (what I believe to be vast) amount of elements introduced all at one time, the level design feels like one big "look at what I can do!" sort of thing. There's nothing wrong with showing off the neat things you can do all at once, but I personally feel like some of the elements should be introduced at least a little earlier in the game (but not used at the same time) so you can get a feel for these elements for when they finally arrive.
The final boss is also a problem for me. Ignoring the out of place sprites, when I first got version 2.0 and finally made it to that portion of the game, I honestly had no idea what I was supposed to do. I may have watched the Sonic OVA, but I still feel like it isn't made obvious as to what you're supposed to do. Especially for the missiles. Yes, Sonic may have ridden them in the OVA to run into Robotnik, but when you're playing a game, you're generally advised to avoid projectiles, especially seeing as every other thing he shoots you're supposed to dodge. And when you do grab the missile, say you manage to miss him and you're still riding the missile. Now he's shooting the rapid fire goop at you and he never stops. You should at LEAST get a chance to hit him and get out of there.
My final suggestion, is to change the last segment of Arid Canyon Zone. It's a challenge for any character at all that cannot fly, glide, or double jump. And not a challenge in a good sort of way, a challenge in a broken sort of way. I know there's an air shield right before the area, but even then the double jump cannot always save you. I feel like there should at least be a platform every now and then, because with the way the jumps works, and what I believe to be a bad "grab" detection, it makes it much harder than it really needs to be.
The final boss is also a problem for me. Ignoring the out of place sprites, when I first got version 2.0 and finally made it to that portion of the game, I honestly had no idea what I was supposed to do. I may have watched the Sonic OVA, but I still feel like it isn't made obvious as to what you're supposed to do. Especially for the missiles. Yes, Sonic may have ridden them in the OVA to run into Robotnik, but when you're playing a game, you're generally advised to avoid projectiles, especially seeing as every other thing he shoots you're supposed to dodge. And when you do grab the missile, say you manage to miss him and you're still riding the missile. Now he's shooting the rapid fire goop at you and he never stops. You should at LEAST get a chance to hit him and get out of there.
My final suggestion, is to change the last segment of Arid Canyon Zone. It's a challenge for any character at all that cannot fly, glide, or double jump. And not a challenge in a good sort of way, a challenge in a broken sort of way. I know there's an air shield right before the area, but even then the double jump cannot always save you. I feel like there should at least be a platform every now and then, because with the way the jumps works, and what I believe to be a bad "grab" detection, it makes it much harder than it really needs to be.
Well, it's not really 'Sonic-style' to introduce gimmicks earlier in the game to reuse them in a later zone, but I do agree that some elements aren't introduced very well in ERZ itself. The appearing/disappearing platforms actually get a great introduction (over a spiked pit) on the right-hand path of ERZ1, but if you take the other path, the first you will see of this gimmick is in ERZ2 as part of one of the most difficult sequences in this game. Likewise, the gravity flipping is introduced well enough on the left-hand path in ERZ1, but the other path is rather catastrophic in that regard. It's not immediately apparent that the gravity switchers are sector-specific and that you will switch back to normal gravity once you step out of them, and to make matters worse, the whole thing is happening over a death pit.
I think it's become apparent over the last three years that Brak Eggman is... not a very good boss, to put it mildly. I'm sure the dev team is aware of these problems.
That section actually has an alternate path in 2.1, so if you mess up on the rope hang, you can still finish the level. I don't believe the grab detection is particularly bad or inaccurate or anything, it's just that the ropes are so small in relation to Sonic that hanging on them is indeed pretty difficult. But this is the fifth zone out of seven, so I feel a bit of difficulty is warranted, especially now that there's an alternate path.