Dark Metal
ZNemeald
The advance series has a lot of curves and slopes and was not as bad on the automation.
(Split from: Sonic 4: Episode 2) Sonic Advance 2 discussion
- Thread starter Dark Metal
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Keep in mind that most of the people who worked on the Advance series aren't working at DIMPS anymore, at least from what I recall.
I'll Begin
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Yeah, I was gonna say that about the Advance series too, only that I haven't extensively played 2 and 3.
But I gotta say, they were pretty awesome games.
But I gotta say, they were pretty awesome games.
At least Sonic Advance 2 is very automated and has a reputation of starting the trend for automation in 2D Sonic titles.
Bbop800
BboP
Hmm, I didn't even know this. That would sure explain a lot.
Sergeant Brown
An Eggman Fan
Try only using the directional buttons while doing Sky Canyon 1, and then tell me if you managed to get to the end.
Pro tip: you can't get to the end.
Pro tip: you can't get to the end.
Just because you need to do something else besides holding right at some points, that doesn't mean it isn't automated. It's automated if too much of the level consists of holding right, not if all of it consists of holding right.
Sure the first zone should count. Look at Angel Island Zone. Anyway, just to refute that claim, I played Hot Crater Zone. In the first act, I had to jump three times to avoid a few spikes and enemies. The rest of the time I held right, except for one instance where the path went left for a short while and once when I had to enter a zoom tube. In act 2, I had to do slightly more directional work, but I didn't jump once. I can safely say that the levels played themselves. None of the first four games and not even Sonic Advance 1 allowed to do that.
Sure, I could have explored, but there's still something wrong when you can beat the levels without jumping.
K.S.
Formerly Inuyasha, Retired Staff
Go play Emerald Hill Zone again and try to tell me that "none of the first four games allowed that", please.
Actually, I did just that to see if I wasn't being hypocritical. I don't remember the exact number, but the first act required me to jump about five times and the second act substantially more. I could have cut down on that by letting all of the enemies hit me, but obviously I'm not doing that. There was also a point where I had to go back to gain momentum because I didn't have enough speed to make it up a certain slope. Still not a lot of interaction, granted, and I actually hold this against Sonic 2, but still nowhere near as drastic as Sonic Advance 2.
Sergeant Brown
An Eggman Fan
There aren't alot of instances in Sonic 1 where it's not holding right.
Some zones required you to sometimes go left, but for the most part you were holding right, jumping here and there.
Hell, most Mario games- even in SMB, you hold right a lot and jump when necessary.
Even in Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2, you had to hold forward a lot.
You cannot blame Sonic Advance 2 for doing something alot of platformers do.
At least be thankful Sonic Advance 2 allowed you to backtrack so you could get an item box or something else you might have missed.
Some zones required you to sometimes go left, but for the most part you were holding right, jumping here and there.
Hell, most Mario games- even in SMB, you hold right a lot and jump when necessary.
Even in Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2, you had to hold forward a lot.
You cannot blame Sonic Advance 2 for doing something alot of platformers do.
At least be thankful Sonic Advance 2 allowed you to backtrack so you could get an item box or something else you might have missed.
Autosaver
Member
The first zone is stream lined as a player introduction. With the new fast mechanics in Advance 2, it makes sense not to have a ton of input so players get used to it. I know previous Sonic games did it differently, but it isn't always the case.
I seriously don't see the big deal with it.
The game gives you the choice of exploring, or going toward the goal. If you head toward the goal without a lot of input, you won't be able to reach the end in the shortest amount of time.
Dimps games are basic, but I love them like that. You can easily make it to the goal, but the point of the game is to make it in the fastest amount of time. Take Sonic Rush for instance, just boosting and an occasional jump will net you poor times every time. The true fun is timing your jumps, taking the higher paths, piling tricks to maximize score, and using boost at the right moments to cut down on time.
It becomes obvious when you play online. If you play it by holding right and the occasional jump, you're going to lose.
I just booted up Sonic 2. I beat Emerald Hill Act 1 in 2 jumps and only holding right. I didn't even have to gain momentum either. I then beat Emerald Hill Act 2 in 2 jumps excluding the boss.
Bbop800
BboP
If Dimps is heading towards the "hold right with a few jumps and platforming sections" idea, then it really shouldn't be called Sonic 4. That's the entire issue with this game. It just shouldn't be categorized as a sequel to the Genesis games at all when it plays completely differently in terms of how you're supposed to play the game.
Some good examples are the homing attack and the usage of boost pads, which completely destroys the purpose of gaining momentum yourself, and even renders the spindash as completely useless.
This is not what "Sonic 4" should play like. It should resemble the way the old games played to a certain degree, but Dimps instead blows that completely out of proportion with their level design choices and automated sections. Sonic 1, 2, and 3 never included boost pads, repetitive homing chains, or Sonic Rush-like slopes and flat surfaces.
If anything, this game should be considered a spiritual successor to the Sonic Advance series with plot elements from the older games shoehorned in. (Which still bothers me a lot.)
Some good examples are the homing attack and the usage of boost pads, which completely destroys the purpose of gaining momentum yourself, and even renders the spindash as completely useless.
This is not what "Sonic 4" should play like. It should resemble the way the old games played to a certain degree, but Dimps instead blows that completely out of proportion with their level design choices and automated sections. Sonic 1, 2, and 3 never included boost pads, repetitive homing chains, or Sonic Rush-like slopes and flat surfaces.
If anything, this game should be considered a spiritual successor to the Sonic Advance series with plot elements from the older games shoehorned in. (Which still bothers me a lot.)
Monster Iestyn
Fangtastic
Sonic 2 - Chemical Plant Zone
Sonic 3 - Chrome Gadget Zone from the multiplayer stages
There's probably some more stages like those that have boost pads that I've forgotten here.
Uhh, Chrome Gadget had no boost pads, You must be thinking of Launch Base Zone.
There's also Hydrocity Zone's boost pads with the hand, and the Launch pads that were used in Flying Battery Zone.
There's also Hydrocity Zone's boost pads with the hand, and the Launch pads that were used in Flying Battery Zone.
Now that's simply not true. More than any of the following games, Sonic 1 requires you to do a lot of platforming. If you don't jump, you won't keep going for more than a few seconds.
Such is the nature of platforming games. You run and, when necessary, jump. My complaint about Sonic Advance isn't that you have to hold right, my complaint is that you rarely ever have to jump at all! Running alone suffices for 90% of the level. This makes for a very boring experience.
I'm not blaming it for using the basic mechanics of a platformer. I'm blaming it for seriously neglecting the jumping half of the equation.
Since when are Advance 2's mechanics substantially different from those of the classics? If you've ever played a Sonic game, you can pick up Advance 2 and play. And even if it's your first Sonic game, that doesn't mean that jumping is too much to ask of the player in the first level. After all, this is an introduction stage, it should introduce the jumping mechanics just like anything else. Streamlining and usage of the jumping mechanic are not mutually exclusive.
Now let's imagine I neither want to explore nor do I want to speedrun. I want to casually play the levels and get to the end. I'm not enjoying that activity because it requires almost no input from my part. That is a big deal.
Essentially, you classify Sonic as a action/racing game rather than a platformer. Which is fine by me. I myself want platforming and thus the automation bothers me.
I have trouble believing that you were able to pull this off without actively trying to avoid jumps. You can't possibly avoid the fish enemies without jumping unless you either get hit or stop and wait, neither of which anyone would do unless they're trying to use as few jumps as possible. That's not how I did it. I held right until I was blocked by something or about to get hit, i.e. a playing style of "least resistance". Any other jumps beyond that are only necessary for reaching another path (which I don't consider interesting by itself since those alternate paths are just as automated as the other ones, they just require a single jump to access), reaching secret items or cutting off time (neither of which are enough to satisfy me). I demand that the game challenges me even when I'm not actively seeking challenge (and trying to reduce your jump count is an actively sought challenge). And that's exactly what the accusation of automation is all about: that the game is not sufficiently interactive unless you go out of your way to seek interaction. Whether or not you consider that a problem is entirely up to you.
K.S.
Formerly Inuyasha, Retired Staff
Down arrow, guys. The three or so times you ideally need to press it counts as "directional management", hm?
(The bridge at the beginning, the 1up in the cavern, and the bridge at the end.)
(The bridge at the beginning, the 1up in the cavern, and the bridge at the end.)
I still love how you're suggesting a game that does silent scripted automation, which is arguably worse.
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