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Old 07-02-2011   #41
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Internet Explorer, Waterway Ruin's music is Tidal Tempest Zone (Present) from Sonic CD.
You're right , I am wrong...it's...impossible !
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Old 07-02-2011   #42
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My computer doesn't support IRC, so I don't know what's going on in #srb2fun. And as for the symbol and the crates, it would be a lot of work for me. Maybe not for you.
Fair enough. You'll see what I mean in the next contest when I enter my map.
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Old 07-02-2011   #43
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I guess since this time I played this OLDC I'll do a little voting and small commentary.

Single Player

Greenflower Sunset Zone by Fawfulfan 7/10
I thought I'd never see a Greenflower Zone in a sunset kind of theme. I actually found this level soothing to play through, with a wonderful choice of music in my opinion. The thing about this level is that to me its just a bunch of jumping platform to platform, and avoiding death pits at one point. Certainly not a lot of gimics and such like a lot of your amazing levels I've seen. But its 'Greenflower' Sunset Zone, so I didn't expect a lot of gimics.

Flower Cave Zone by Miles Knuckle Power 1/10
Um.. Like what everyone said, Emerald Hunt is not enjoyable. The level is small and square like and really easy to play through. I like how you hid a nuke shield though, but honestly don't know how that would help. Maybe try not making an Emerald Hunt level? Music is boring to me.. But that's just me :P

Sparkling Icecap by Thompson 8/10

I really wanted to get that invincibility at the start, how taunting. Anyways this level was amazing to play through. Enjoyed every small little gimic, it really kept interest in playing through the level. The puzzles were interesting as well, and loving how you must melt the ice to proceed through the level. My concerns for this level is the level/frame lag, it isn't that bad on my computer but its still noticeable. The level is still playable though, but about the part at the end when the lava rises up. I played this level in Coop and others couldn't go through the lava part as it was blocking them. Was there another path? I don't know. The ice theme is beautiful with fire makes this level unique in my opinion.

Frozen Hillside Zone Act 1 by Blade 10/10
Blade.. ;c Did you say those Penguinators were sprited by me and fixed by Nev3r? :P Heh. So at first when I saw this level over your screenshots, I thought it looked very dull. Great to see you used different textures on the walls and the top hat on your snowman. Funny how I was just by a penguin and it got killed from the snowman's iceball.. Thing.. (Is it suppose to be ice or a snowball?) This level I found easy to play through, and was fun to me, the heavy snow also made it seem more realistic of it being snow. For the most I will say for this level, was that I thought I'd never see you make an ice level, this is probably the most beautiful ice level I've seen in a long time. Also.. Why are my Penguinators green looking? :c

Stronghold Forest Zone Act 1 by KO.T.E 8/10
SFZ1 was alright to me, it kinda felt flat to me.. But that could be me you know. Is this suppose to be a remake of a level in Chaos Domain? Anyways, I did like how you did this map though, it did give a military kind of feeling through out the whole level, especially with the tanks coming at you. You sprited these tanks very well and I love the different shadings of brown you used for the mud on the tanks. Now that really made me feel like the tank went through some very heavy training *bricked* But nonetheless I liked this map, and I liked the short tree climbing part. I don't got much to say for this level.

White Mountain Zone by Kuba11 -/10
Just one thing.. I know it is disqualified, but I actually spent so much time looking for an exit, I even back tracked. Wasting almost 20 minutes looking, did anyone else do this? Or is it just me? Just next time enter a level that is finished. But I liked your choice of different textures used here. Really brings out contrast.

Waterway Ruin Zone Act 1 by Chrome -/10
I remember playing that one stage that had this entrance as the ending. I instantly knew who made the map. Loving the Sonic CD music used here as well and how calming the water level really is. Some parts seemed cramped, probably those 'pipe' like places. But I did like how there was this cylinder kind of thing and you stepped on to the purple platform and it raises by the water, that I thought was cool.. Though I actually got squished by it. Great to see a level using the purple lake and the doom ship textures together though. Too bad it got disqualified.. Cause I actually liked this one.

Jadeflower Zone Act 3 by blahblahbal 4/10

Intro looked.. Fascinating.. And then you finish it in a few seconds. I was hoping for me, my hopes got lost after seeing that darn exit sign. It was disappointing to see potential of a level end so quickly. If only you extended the level.. Of a once peaceful kind of paradise that soon burns from a volcano on it.. Well as I see there is a small portion of lava (that surprisingly doesn't hurt you) it did give me a volcano kind of idea.

Match

Ponies Suck Zone by Fawfulfan 1/10
I hope this is some kind of joke of yours, I was surprised to hear you made this level, as it is nothing compared to your works. I had a great laugh though. Lol confiscated pony chow.. And yikes indeed for forgetting a skynum. Red is blinding, and this level is square like.

Flux Satellite Zone by 742mph 1/10
The idea of gravity flipping was interesting, but there were barely any rings. How can anyone play match in this level without an actual good amount of rings? It was also hard to find people as they're on the other side of the platform you're standing on. I also thought this was a CTF level. At least bomb seems to be abusive here.. I think, if I ever got it. I lost interest in this level quickly though.

Southern Sands Zone by akb778 2/10
Eh.. It's an okay level. I really don't have much to say about this one, but where are the weapon panels? Are they hiding on me? :c? I really don't have much to say about this one.

Frozen Tundra Zone by Chaos Zero 64 3/10
Springs and 2 rail panels, I love railing in this stage. This stage was kind of dull and boring to me. It did feel small as well as there wasn't much going on here.

I'll do CTF and Race later when I get the chance to play them.

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Old 07-02-2011   #44
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Ponies Suck Zone by Fawfulfan 1/10
I hope this is some kind of joke of yours, I was surprised to hear you made this level, as it is nothing compared to your works.

Of course it was a joke. Rest assured that I didn't intend for this level to demonstrate scathing social commentary or breathtaking level design.
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Old 07-02-2011   #45
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Originally Posted by Hinote View Post
IUm.. Like what everyone said, Emerald Hunt is not enjoyable.
Is that true? Or is it the fact that the map was really boring, bland, and poorly executed that made it not enjoyable. People always complain about Emerald Hunt being boring in SRB2, but personally I think it is a matter of no one having made any decent Emerald Hunt Levels. I actually make LOTS of emerald hunt levels, but I haven't released any yet.
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Old 07-02-2011   #46
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Fair enough. You'll see what I mean in the next contest when I enter my map.
If it's as great as you say, then I look forward to playing it.
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Old 07-02-2011   #47
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Originally Posted by 742mph View Post
If it's as great as you say, then I look forward to playing it.
Actually, I was just referring to my artwork in the level, but yes, I hope it will be great to play too. It's sure been fun to design it! ^_^
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Old 07-03-2011   #48
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No scores today, folks. OLDC is about honest, earnest feedback from other mappers to lead you forward in your mapping techniques. And I don't need to give you scores in order to do that. I trust that everyone else's scores will be sufficient, so you surely won't need mine to tell you who's "best".

Greenflower Sunset Zone by Fawfulfan
Some parts grabbed my heart. Other parts left me hanging.

This shot was what really grabbed my attention. Then I went hunting for other cool spots, and found this. And then this was really cool. And you ended the level on a high note right here.

Fawfulfan. You are capable of greatness. If you make a level completely out of stuff like this, I will personally be your biggest fan. Can you see what I love about these pictures? You're drawing my eyes up. There's more to these rooms than just what's on the ground floor for the gameplay.

Take me somewhere I've never been before. Lead me by the hand into unparalleled vistas of majesty. Show me the curtain over my eyes so you can pull it away. Whisper into my ears the secrets of my soul. Give me the kinds of memories I only have when I'm asleep.

All with a level.

Flower Cave Zone by Miles Knuckle Power
The key to making a good emerald hunt level is to make the player curious. He should be asking in his head, "Ooh, I wonder what's over there?" For me, I was asking myself, "Alright, where is it."

You make the player interested in your level by being interested in it yourself. Create in yourself the sense of curiosity you wish to communicate to your player. Let the level carry you away as you find yourself building all sorts of nooks and crannies.

Sparkling Icecap by Thompson
My first reaction was, oddly, to become angry.

Why did you pick music that was so beautiful? Did you know what the music truly sounded like, what it would do to me? Did you know how it would stir up my heart and move me back and forth? Why couldn't you have your level beautiful like the music? Why couldn't you see how beautiful your music was? How could you be so stupid and miss true beauty for this impostor? Why would you leave me so unfulfilled?

But I cannot blame you for what I have done to myself. When I gave up my infatuation with the beauty that wasn't there, when I gave up my expectation and need and want, only then did I truly see your level. And your level is beautiful, Thompson.

I think that you may have created a level which fits what I've described for Fawfulfan above. You, who are capable of greatness, have found your level designing niche and have made something which came from your soul. The penguins sliding off on the side of the freezing iceway were so cute. And yet, I'm not sure if a map like this is what I really wanted.

Frozen Hillside Zone Act 1 by Blade
Yes, Blade, it's "good." You did everything "right," picking all the right textures and making the gameplay smooth. You have new enemies and new gimmicks. You have this song and dance down pat. Really, there are no "flaws" here.

But, as I'm sure you can tell from all my air quotes, something's still not right here. Your map is fake. You run the map through your process, run down your checklist, and _pop_! Out comes your level. You're using the same process here that you've used for every single other map. Your map is perfect, but that's bad.

I don't want to play some prim and proper level, Blade. I want raw, powerful emotion. I want a map out of you that comes from your heart instead of your mind. All the levels I've ever made have had myself in them. I've yearned and ached and broken my own heart over all of my maps. I know that you don't make maps like that. But my desire to make maps that are beautiful has been what has kept me going. I don't know how you keep going like this from map to map to map making the same map over and over and over again.

But hey, Mystic likes your map, so that's worth something.

Stronghold Forest Zone Act 1 by KO.T.E
Knockout, consider your brother. Blade is a very successful mapper; I don't tell newbies they should be breaking my heart. I don't really know what kind of mapping discussions you two have in the presence of your own home, but I can't imagine that you two don't rub off on each other with your mapping styles.

I don't know if you'd be surprised by this, but your maps remind me of Blade's. A lot. When I think of your maps, the subliminal thought I've never truly realized I had was always, "Oh yeah, KOTE, that guy who makes maps like Blade." In my mind, Blade overshadows you. That's bad.

When I think of Blade's maps, he's answered all of the questions that need to be asked about mapping. He knows why he's doing what he's doing. He knows what hallways mean for his mapping style. Every single thing is careful and intentional. I don't get that vibe from you. You're lost, in some ways. I can't say for sure, but I think you don't have the answers yourself, so you look to Blade's map and pattern yourself off of his stuff. It's just a guess, so I'm either wrong or very very incomplete.

But still. You need your own style. Figure out what excites you about mapping, and then map map map map until you're comfortable in your own skin.

White Mountain Zone by Kuba11
Sadly, I seem to have forgotten how to instruct new mappers on their skills. I have only simple advice: Keep your ears open when people talk about maps. Keep your eyes open when you play maps. And whenever you find a new idea about mapping, ask why. Why should maps be built this way? Why should my map be built this way?

Waterway Ruin Zone Act 1 by Chrome
Well! It seems Chrome has a particular aversion to gutting old, flawed parts of his map. About halfway through his map, he messaged me (and maybe a few other guys?) to ask for feedback. Everything that's new to me is awesome, and everything that's still there still sucks. (He used my feedback, of course. He just used it with all of the new rooms and left the old rooms the same.)

Remember, kids: If the room sucks, rework it until you're happy. If you can't, it's not worth keeping.

Jadeflower Zone Act 3 by blahblahbal
Not sure what to say; sorry. If I would try to say anything, it would look a lot like what I told Kuba11 with his White Mountain Zone. I'd suggest reading that if you haven't already.



And now I miss not having made SRB2 levels recently. Oh well, maybe later.
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Old 07-03-2011   #49
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Foxy comes to rate the maps.

Singleplayer

Greenflower Sunset Zone - 7

It was pretty, I liked the colormaps, but it was quite bland, all I did was hop a few times, travel across some pits, and I was done. I was expecting some enemies to pop out up somewhere, but there were none.

Flower Cave - 2
This was a nice try to try and bring back emerald hunt, it was quite empty, and the emerald pieces were relatively too easy to find, it was very bland, and small.

Sparkling Icecap - 8
There was slight lag issues on my end, but I'm sure some others have alreayd noted that out. The gimmicks were interesting, and it was really "cool." I was decorative, and I really felt like I was in an ice cave. Some of the parts were too fast for slower characters o handle, perhaps make a seperate path for those parts of your level Tails or Knuckles cannot outrun? Other than that this level was spectacular!

Frozen Hillside - 9
My pick of the pack, Frozen Hillside gets my best score so far. The penguins and snowmen were cute! They had interesting and challenging soc abilities, and the scene was well decorated with snow-topped scenery and trees! The playthrough was vivid and smooth, forgiving yet challenging. There was a bit too much scenery in some places however, and there seemed to be a slight lack in enemies, some of the scene was getting repetitive, but those are minor details, this level is amazing!

Stronghold Forest - 8
This was well detailed, with its own unique enemies as well, the scene started to get repetitive and boring however, the level played through dramatically well, the enemies were difficult to beat, but easy after you get used to them, I enjoy this stage a lot, it seemed a little flat though.

Waterway Ruin - 8.5
It's pretty, and quite mesmerizing, it took my breath away, it was layed out very pretty, there were a few map glitches at some spots, it still played decently, it was quite astounding, but quite cramped sometimes.

Jade Flower Zone - 5
This is a good start, yes it's short, it looks incomplete, but still, there are things I notice. The lava won't harm you. Is this orange water? It was also quit bland, and horizontal, and felt a little cramped. I like your try on the style, but for what you're trying it doesn't seem like enough scenery. It still is pretty decent, I would want to see the final product. Good work!

I will add the rest when I feel like it.
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Old 07-03-2011   #50
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Waterway Ruin - 8.5
Small problem, even if the map of Chrome is disqualified, we can only put whole numbers ! So either 8, either 9 !

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZero4 View Post
Sparkling Icecap by Thompson
My first reaction was, oddly, to become angry.
I'm not alone.
Because we're there, I see that there are many remarks about "the sensations gave to the players". And you give some advice like "Why should built this like that, why .. etc.." and you are right. Places to build, apply this rule, but do not forget that this is a video game. Unable to reproduce reality in every detail (Wood Asleep, one of my levels, tried ... and it sucked.), And video games have some properties. In fact, there are two styles. The "natural" style, a good example is Drowned Downtown, and ... "video game", such a bit as in Spacewalk, you can enter meteors, there are space bases, you can jump over pieces of pipe, etc.. Or even simply Greenflower, style video game is very well applied.
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Last edited by Internet Explorer; 07-03-2011 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 07-03-2011   #51
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Originally Posted by BlueZero4 View Post
Frozen Hillside Zone Act 1 by Blade
Yes, Blade, it's "good." You did everything "right," picking all the right textures and making the gameplay smooth. You have new enemies and new gimmicks. You have this song and dance down pat. Really, there are no "flaws" here.

But, as I'm sure you can tell from all my air quotes, something's still not right here. Your map is fake. You run the map through your process, run down your checklist, and _pop_! Out comes your level. You're using the same process here that you've used for every single other map. Your map is perfect, but that's bad.

I don't want to play some prim and proper level, Blade. I want raw, powerful emotion. I want a map out of you that comes from your heart instead of your mind. All the levels I've ever made have had myself in them. I've yearned and ached and broken my own heart over all of my maps. I know that you don't make maps like that. But my desire to make maps that are beautiful has been what has kept me going. I don't know how you keep going like this from map to map to map making the same map over and over and over again.
...holy crap. You're right. You just put into words something that always nagged at the back of my mind as I was playing Blade's levels, but couldn't quite pinpoint. The only real problem with his levels is that they have become almost formulaic in their greatness.

Now I think about it, in fact, Thompson and Blade represent two polar opposites of what makes a "good" level designer, and each one has the very thing that is missing in the other's work. Thompson creates with his heart, giving his levels attitude and originality and a powerful distinctiveness, willing to break the rules in those rare cases when it actually proves beneficial, but he lacks the discipline to make his levels coherent or intuitive. Blade, on the other hand, creates with his mind, building levels that exhibit an almost mathematical perfection and by-the-book adherence to tried and true methods of solid design, but stops just short of making any individual gimmick amaze or impress, or of injecting a particular kind of enjoyment or engagement into a given room or section.

The result? Thompson's levels are memorable masterpieces that aren't always coherent or reasonable; Blade's levels are tidy, perfect obstacle courses that never shake things up too much either positively or negatively. If only these two styles could learn from each other, we'd see the most epic map in the history of SRB2.
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Old 07-03-2011   #52
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I guess I owe you some explanation:
White mountain:
I'm sorry for that I forgot to put exit, but in the last moment I decided to extend this level a bit, but later resigned from this idea. I had tested everything before I tried to extend this level, so I thought everything will work fine. Sorry for wasting your time looking for exit. Anyways, this level IS finished, it's just short purposely (due to my levelpack plans). Thank you for giving me criticism, as that's the most important thing for me.
White pass:
Well, I was expecting this because I didn't really have a good idea for this level. Of course at first it was supposed to look much better, but later i lost my inspiration. I wanted to check if such a level is liked. That's purpose of OLDC, right?
I didn't really focus on polishing the levels as I suddenly decided to work on srb2riders map.
I'll probably vote on single player maps.
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Old 07-03-2011   #53
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This discussion of the feelings to the levels interested me, and I agree. Those who can make levels with the heart were very fortunate to have this skill. Level "from the heart" can be more powerful and artistic than a level based on simple rules of construction.
Chapter about the level design 101 (wiki) is used to "know how to make levels", no more. It's good, sure, but it's not enought expressive. It is very hard to create levels and forget the rules, by building a world with mind, completely personalized and personal tastes.

For my part, I can not note on the "deep" construction. I am not yet expressive enough to understand what the artists wanted exprimm in their levels.
Unfortunately, I still have to note on the construction of level, I must still say "It looks pretty good," "missing rings, missing the enemy", etc. ..
Those who can add a second inner dimension in their levels are rare.
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Old 07-03-2011   #54
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Frozen Hillside Zone Act 1 by Blade
Yes, Blade, it's "good." You did everything "right," picking all the right textures and making the gameplay smooth. You have new enemies and new gimmicks. You have this song and dance down pat. Really, there are no "flaws" here.

But, as I'm sure you can tell from all my air quotes, something's still not right here. Your map is fake. You run the map through your process, run down your checklist, and _pop_! Out comes your level. You're using the same process here that you've used for every single other map. Your map is perfect, but that's bad.

I don't want to play some prim and proper level, Blade. I want raw, powerful emotion. I want a map out of you that comes from your heart instead of your mind. All the levels I've ever made have had myself in them. I've yearned and ached and broken my own heart over all of my maps. I know that you don't make maps like that. But my desire to make maps that are beautiful has been what has kept me going. I don't know how you keep going like this from map to map to map making the same map over and over and over again.

But hey, Mystic likes your map, so that's worth something.
Let me reference something I said earlier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by akb778 View Post
Frozen Hillside Zone Act 1, by Blade - 8/10

...Which means the other ice-themed SP map here gets my vote for the win. (I'm a hypocrite, am I?) The custom enemies here are excellent and the level design is pretty straightfoward. Typical Blade I guess - mapmaking machine that produces winner after winner.
And that's what I'm comparing Blade to - a robot, creating good SRB2 maps with a mind that can make them perfect. In fact, if I play some of his maps, I almost feel like I'm playing something very similar over and over again. Thompson, on the other hand, all of his levels have something unique about them. He goes the extra mile to put that extra touch into his maps. However, that extra touch might involve mind-bending puzzle-solving, or trying to find out where to go next on a certain path (as is the case with Sparkling Icecap).

Finally, let me quote BlueZero4 again, one last time, something that was said way back in the Jan/Feb '11 OLDC:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZero4 View Post
Blade, I'm bored of your levels. Change it up.
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Old 07-03-2011   #55
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...I thought this was the OLDC Voting topic, not the "Blade is a robot" topic?

EDIT: (Also, why do I suddenly think of this topic in particular?)

EDIT2: On another note, I've actually finished Sparkling Icecap this time on my second playthough of it, after having lost to the lava in that room to the giant snowflake the first time. =x

Last edited by Monster Iestyn; 07-03-2011 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 07-03-2011   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueZero4 View Post
I don't want to play some prim and proper level, Blade. I want raw, powerful emotion. I want a map out of you that comes from your heart instead of your mind. All the levels I've ever made have had myself in them. I've yearned and ached and broken my own heart over all of my maps. I know that you don't make maps like that. But my desire to make maps that are beautiful has been what has kept me going. I don't know how you keep going like this from map to map to map making the same map over and over and over again.
Look. Look at how pretentious this guy is.
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Old 07-03-2011   #57
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Originally Posted by Ritz View Post
Look. Look at how pretentious this guy is.
Why are you calling him pretentious? He's not saying all that just to make himself sound cool, or better than the rest of us, he's saying it because that's who he is and how he works. And apparently, he is not the only one here who works like that. I know I do, and many others in the thread expressed their agreement.
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Old 07-03-2011   #58
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Originally Posted by Ritz View Post
Look. Look at how pretentious this guy is.
And I love it. I absolutely love it. His review style is completely different from everyone else's, and that's what makes him great.
BlueZero4, please tell me you'll stick around for the next contest. I want you to review my next map in the same vein. Last time I only got a reference to a song that I didn't particularly like...
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Old 07-03-2011   #59
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Originally Posted by Charybdizs View Post
Why are you calling him pretentious?
"Here's some honest, earnest feedback to lead you forward in your mapping techniques: Vacuous purple prose. This map is fake! My maps are special. I pour my heart and soul into my maps. I guess that, like, isn't your style or something, though."

"No scores because I'm making a statement."
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Old 07-03-2011   #60
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"Here's some honest, earnest feedback to lead you forward in your mapping techniques: Vacuous purple prose. This map is fake! My maps are special. I pour my heart and soul into my maps. I guess that, like, isn't your style or something, though."

"No scores because I'm making a statement."
Ahh, so this is what it looks like when a troll has been trolled.
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