Death Pits - Great or Lazy level design

It has become apparent that in platformer games that there is always going to be a death pit somehow, somewhere, and in someway. However the reason I bring this is up is because I wish to talk about death pits in srb2.

Do you consider death pits a great level design or a bad level design? Generally speaking anyways. Because we know that like all game elements, some are worth putting in, and some are not worth putting in. However I personally feel that death pits (especially in srb2) should not be a "main challenge" and the reason for this is because that is a really broken kind of challenge if you ask me. It's like one of those "I couldn't think up of anything else so let's place the death pit" kind of like DIMPs does with its need to require you to homing attack over enemies to cross a pit.
(Vanilla SRB2 does not suffer from death pits being overdone until levels like Arid Canyon Zone, where it is somewhat appropriate)

One thing I dislike about these kind of topics is that they try to paint the issue black or white. Great or Lazy. Good or bad. No grey area! You said yourself, their use is appropriate in ACZ1, but bad in that other thing you mentioned (I don't know what DIMPs is).

So yeah, you kinda answered the question yourself. Their use is good or bad depending on how the level uses them. By themselves they're neither.

I'm referring to a more general perception. Because even if they might seem appropriate, it could still be bad design. Take for example, the classic Sonic games generally avoided death pits, until the way way way later stages, and even then there weren't that many. It seems like people use death pits as a crutch for "difficulty" sometimes because they can't come up with anything else.

Any sort of major platformer level element isn't good when it's overused. And this is certainly no exception for death pits. Death pits are instant kill all by themselves, and should therefore be used sparingly. Sometimes elements and hazards can be used more frequently due to the theme, as in if you're in a volcano, you're going to see a lot of harmful lava, whereas on a canyon terrain you're likely to fall by falling off of a cliff, so it would probably contain a lot of death falls, and in space you're probably going to have to battle the lack of air, etc. If you take that canyon level and fit it with the pretty wonder of Green Flower Zone, you'll start thinking death pits are over-used due to the theme, when you expect it to be safe and pretty all around. It's only lazy level design when it either simply doesn't make sense or doesn't have a purpose. But having an endless space portion in ERZ, long enough that it will make the player feel bored about the level element, is not lazy level design, but poor level design.

And yes, death pits do help with the difficulty. I know some places that use death pits as a means of being harder. Like World 8 in Super Mario Bros 3. If you ever had to play that flying ship level.. *Shudders*

And this boy is right about Sonic games avoiding death pits. Even Sonic CD uses just one death pit, at Metallic Madness 3.

Eliwood said:

Take for example, the classic Sonic games generally avoided death pits, until the way way way later stages, and even then there weren't that many.

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Classic Sonic had the advantage of being in a 2D enviorment, where falling down would lead to a lower path, with a loss of speed as punishment. In SRB2, it's much more difficult to make sure that the player always falls down to a lower path, since its levels are 3D.

Chrome said:

it's much more difficult to make sure that the player always falls down to a lower path, since its levels are 3D.

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That's my point. You can't really see if something "below" is safe, yet people still use death pits + paths that require you to go down, but sometimes it is hard to tell if it's safe or not because of the horrendous amount of death pits in earlier stages.

Eliwood said:

That's my point. You can't really see if something "below" is safe, yet people still use death pits + paths that require you to go down, but sometimes it is hard to tell if it's safe or not because of the horrendous amount of death pits in earlier stages.

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Aren't the first death pits in DSZ though?

Lippa said:

Aren't the first death pits in DSZ though?

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Yeah. But they make it pretty obvious where the pits are.

If you can't tell what pit is death, It's more likely the level designer's fault than the pit itself. Several games use some way of showing what pits are death, like Shantae using bubble-like crossbones and Kirby games putting a dark gradient. Though if you need to go so far as to plant a giant orange sign next to pits, there's a problem.

D00D64 said:

Several games use some way of showing what pits are death.

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Even 2D Sonic games beyond Sonic 4 Episode 1 feature warning signs to tell you when a pit is below you. Even then, Sonic Adventure 2: Battle reminds you of when a rail you're grinding is about to split or even end.

some games on the other hand, have obvious means by what is a pit and what is not, like Crash Bandicoot and it's black floors of doom, and Mario Kart 64 for its memorable water hazard, so much that they don't really need a warning.

3D games also can share the platformer element of lower slower paths, if they are designed correctly. It takes a lot of planning though.

One thing to take note of regarding death pits in SRB2 is that, in the current version at least, it is very difficult to die by any means other than an instant death trap which is part of why traps like death pits or crushers are so common.

While there are some challenging badniks like sharps or how most enemies in the game can be an effective threat against the player when well placed it's very easy to pick up at least one ring, making it quite easy for a player to brute force their way through most hazards in the game by taking damage and picking up a ring again without a mechanic that punishes them for trying. For example, death pits, crushers, a long fall that forces the rings to be spread apart or small holes the rings can fall in and be lost.

Hopefully this will be less of an issue in 2.1 with the changes to ring mechanics, so they work like taking damage in some of the modern Sonic games where the rings fly further away from you every time you get hurt. But right now the this is one of the main reasons death pits are so prominent.

I still find it very irritating when there are so many places you can fall and die with a very small mistake. It's just... aaaaagh. I find it to be cheap and lazy to throw down those obstacles like that. I mean, I don't caaaaare if it's the only way to punish players, take a look at Primistic Angel Zone (Think it's called that) That's not punishment, that's freakin' torture. It's just... really... annoying. The worst death pit has to be on Nimbus Ruins. (I recall that being the one with the massive death pit and really small platforms to jump on, the CTF map?) Because of the fact that you're running with the flag, and bam, one miscalculation and you've let the other team get a capture. Unless you're all as clueless as each other, then it's an everlasting CTF Map. I hate death pits so much. DX

This is why falling onto lower paths, though taking more effort, is ultimately much more enjoyable in the long run, isn't cheap, and gives your maps immense replayability. In the case where they fall as low as possible, yes deathpits can be used, but something that doesn't kill the player instantly and gives them a chance is much less frustrating after making a usual mistake, like accidentally gliding into the floor right at the edge for with Knuckles.