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Old 09-21-2016   #5281
Mystic
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So, we've actually tried letting Knuckles preserve some (and all) of his speed when entering a glide, and I can tell you that it's completely absurd.

One of the things you have to remember is that part of making a game with decisions that matter (like character choice) is that there need to be real tradeoffs and that you need to really lose out on something to get something else. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles all have major strengths, but they also have significant downsides to their abilities. If Tails and Knuckles could freely keep their momentum while using their abilities, what would even be the point of using Sonic?
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Old 09-22-2016   #5282
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What's the point to using Sonic over the others in Sonic 3?
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Old 09-22-2016   #5283
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Sonic is the only one with access to shield abilities in S3K. The Lightning Shield in particular is way faster at going up than either Tails or Knuckles is, at the drawback of losing it if you get hit.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5284
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what would even be the point of using Sonic?
As much of a death sentence it is to disagree with you, Sonic is meant for speed. For starters, he has the fastest normalspeed in the vanilla game, being 36 FRACUNITS, while Knuckles is 34 FRACUNITS and keeping his momentum while gliding is not going to go faster than Sonic unless you're from a high height, next, Sonic has a speed thok making him the fastest character in the game by default. Tails' and Knuckles' accelerations are shit compared to Sonic, they have absolutely no way to get to their normalspeed without spindash jumping or slowly getting up to their speed in about 2-3 seconds(not correctly calculated). Sonic can get to his normalspeed in a second(not correctly calculated) and his Speed Thok gets him past his max speed in under a second, no doubt.

Knuckles' Gliding based on speed and momentum is questionable at best, its not absurd, but if anything, it should be based on Knuckles' normalspeed (minus speedshoes), meaning that the max it can go up to his normalspeed, 34 FRACUNITS, and anything slower than the actionspd should not affect the actionspd anymore. It is just a suggestion though (not like you care about most of them anyways), but making Knux's glide a little more speed-based can make Knuckles a little more bearable in your crazy match system.

Last edited by Sapheros; 09-22-2016 at 12:59 AM. Reason: had a brainfart lel
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Old 09-22-2016   #5285
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It's a lot more complicated than that. Different modes emphasize different abilities of characters. What is powerful in single player or match are generally very different things. Sonic is fast. His speed is powered by his ability, the thok, which gives you instant speed. His drawback is that he has a serious lack of ability to go up. Without a spring, slope, or other method of gaining altitude, Sonic is limited in his ability to go up and he cannot bypass any platforming at all. To take the obvious opposite example, Tails has absolutely no problems going upwards at all. His ability completely trivializes many platforming challenges and he can easily traverse complicated terrain with no real issues. Tails, however, can't go fast without a lot of prior planning. Without spindashing or speed shoes, Tails is stuck accelerating up to his running speed the slow way and runs slower than everyone else to boot. These strengths and weaknesses are practically polar opposites.

Now, let's look at two obvious modes of play. In single player, the emphasis the game provides is platforming and challenging terrain. Tails excels at that, and the single player game is by far the easiest to play through as Tails. In match, the emphasis the game has is on acceleration and speed. Sonic excels at that, and therefore he's incredibly strong in match. The designs of our modes emphasize different things, and different characters fill those niches best.

We could, if we wanted to, "fix" this by shoring up the character's weaknesses. I'm pretty damn sure that if Tails could fly around at run speed, he'd be way better in match. If we gave Sonic the ability to, say, thok directly upwards, he'd be way better in single player. The problem is that by circumventing character weaknesses, we make the character overall less compelling. The whole POINT of having a choice is to make you give up something for something else. If we removed those weaknesses all of the characters would be fair, but at the cost of making all the characters the same.

I think that homogenizing the characters would be a huge mistake. We want our characters to all feel unique. While this does lead to more complicated questions as to how to make single player challenging for Tails and how to make Sonic weaker in match, it's way better in the long run to preserve what makes each character unique, even if they're drawbacks.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5286
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Could y'all bring the super monitor to the debug option?
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Old 09-22-2016   #5287
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Why not try speeding up Knuckles' glide acceleration? How would that affect things in match and single player? Would Sonic still be less of a compelling character to play as?
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Old 09-22-2016   #5288
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Why not try speeding up Knuckles' glide acceleration? How would that affect things in match and single player? Would Sonic still be less of a compelling character to play as?
In my opinion

In match its already really hard to hit knuckles (with a rail) as he is gliding at his fastest speed, so making him accel faster in gliding terms would be even harder to hit and just generally a nuisance to sonic players.

In single player though it wouldnt really make a difference.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5289
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How about if he starts Gliding at a slow speed and slowly gains more speed while Gliding .
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Old 09-22-2016   #5290
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He already does that.

Also:

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Originally Posted by Zwip-Zwap Zapony View Post
As a matter of fact, I've been very recently debating making a "merge request" on the source code repository for (subjectively) better controller (and mouse) support for menus.
Spoiler: Silly information about it
Specifically, when using an X-Input (XBox-style) controller/a PlayStation controller (emulated into an X-Input controller)/a mouse...
- A/Cross/Left mouse button is used to confirm
- B/Circle/Right mouse button to cancel
- Y/Triangle/Middle mouse click to do the same as backspace (delete saves, blank out controls, etcetera)

However, I haven't made a way to open the menu using a controller, but even then, for my relatively essential configuration, only the B button is completely free during gameplay, and using that to open a pause menu seems... very silly and out-of-place.
I have tested my code changes (which is more than just changing the virtual key remappings), and it does seem to work pretty well, although I haven't tested it out 100%.
...As for making jump/spin universally confirm/cancel for menus, while I can see how that might be useful to some people for some reasons, I can also see a few issues with it, all in all weighing out to be pretty neutral-ish if the user knows what they are doing, and pretty bad if the user doesn't.
I'm pretty sure we'd love to have a look at your code. I'd personally say it should go right in immediately but I'm not sure what would happen if the back-in-menu key was bound to jump or something like that, and it would probably be wise to plan for that eventuality.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5291
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It didn't look or feel so to be honest, Feels like he starts at a Fast speed .
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Old 09-22-2016   #5292
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I'm pretty sure we'd love to have a look at your code. I'd personally say it should go right in immediately but I'm not sure what would happen if the back-in-menu key was bound to jump or something like that, and it would probably be wise to plan for that eventuality.
Just to be extra clear: The buttons I have in my "enhanced menu support" for controllers/mouse is still just as hard-coded as the escape/enter/backspace keys.
I was simply listing issues with having set-up-able menu controls if I had made set-up-able menu controls. Although I guess there's no reason for me to not look into making menu controls set-up-able (while keeping the normal stuff hardcoded).
But if you (or someone else) still want(s) to look at it while I start making set-up-able changes, here. It works for me, but I would rather not have it be merged into official branches, due to the hastily slapped-on way I made it. I plan on making the set-up-able way so the different menu controls can not be mapped to the same keys, don't worry, but we'll see how it goes.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5293
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Pressing spin after jumping from a spring turns the player back into a spinball and can use their special action again. This helps keep games fast.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5294
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Pressing spin after jumping from a spring turns the player back into a spinball and can use their special action again. This helps keep games fast.
I dont fully agree with this in terms of balance in CTF and Match modes
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Old 09-22-2016   #5295
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For me

Knuckles glide acceleration is already good enough like MK said to dodge some shots.
Knuckles can get the upper hand to shoot since he shoots faster than Sonic and Tails.
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Old 09-22-2016   #5296
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I dont fully agree with this in terms of balance in CTF and Match modes
What about second abilities with this like a double jump for all the characters with tails having highest and sonic having the lowest, and a fly cancel for Tails.
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Old 09-23-2016   #5297
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What about second abilities with this like a double jump for all the characters with tails having highest and sonic having the lowest, and a fly cancel for Tails.
Well sonic is technically geting a second ablitiy, Insta shield, but the idea of a second ability sounds good. As long as they are balanced im ok with it.
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Old 09-23-2016   #5298
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Sonic isn't getting the instashield. Where did you get that idea?
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Old 09-23-2016   #5299
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Sonic isn't getting the instashield. Where did you get that idea?
Fsonic.... . _.

If sonic were to have a second ablity, Instashield would be my first choice to add to sonic as a second ablitiy
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Old 09-23-2016   #5300
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inb4 MotorRoach said that FSonic's gameplay was not for 2.2 , though having the instashield and dashmode and nerfing the thok might balance sonic's gameplay
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