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Old 08-24-2009   #1
glaber
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Default Emulating the Classics in 3D or merging the Classics with the Mordern?

A few times in the past, the argument that I heard was that SRB2 was suppose to emulate the Classics in 3D. But the more I play both SRB2 and The classics, the less that argument seems holds water.

The Classics had Super Sonic and Super Knuckles when Chaos Emeralds were involved. Hyper S & K and Super Tails when Super emeralds were involved

The Modern, starting with Sonic Adventure, Had Only Sonic going Super (Something SRB2 does in Singleplayer), Emerald Hunt (Seems to be going the Way of Chaos in SRB2), and homing (or Thocking in SRB2's Case when not active)

Is the current stance on SRB2 that it is emulating the Classics in 3D or is it the merging of the Classics with the Mordern?
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Old 08-24-2009   #2
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Do you see most of the fonts and graphical style of Srb2? It is more based on Sonic 2 than any of the later games. Only Sonic can go Super, stuff like that...
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Old 08-24-2009   #3
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But Sonic's being the only Super lasted only untill 1994 when Sonic and Knuckles was released. And at that point Sonic only had 3 Games to go Super in, 4 if you count Sonic 3 & Knuckles as seprate. Knuckles was able to go super in KIS2, S3&k and S&K.
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Old 08-24-2009   #4
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Originally Posted by glaber View Post
The Classics had Super Sonic and Super Knuckles when Chaos Emeralds were involved. Hyper S & K and Super Tails when Super emeralds were involved

The Modern, starting with Sonic Adventure, Had Only Sonic going Super (Something SRB2 does in Singleplayer), Emerald Hunt (Seems to be going the Way of Chaos in SRB2), and homing (or Thocking in SRB2's Case when not active)
These are rather poor examples... Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the only game in which any characters other than Sonic could go super, the majority of the games before SA did not even have any super forms at all (Sonic CD, all of the handheld games, Sonic 1, etc). Also I'll point out how every single one of your examples of Knuckles going super are Sonic&Knuckles with some expansion added to it. Once again, the exception.

Notice however, that Super Sonic functions more the way he did in the old games than the way he does in the new games. Rather than being a plot device, its a powerup the player earns by getting the chaos emeralds.

Additionally, Emerald Hunt was just a spinoff gametype used in SA1 and SA2... and once again, is the exception rather than the rule. Besides which, it is the only SA element that has been kept for SRB2, as homing was nerfed heavily and light-dash was removed entirely.

The homing attack is very little like the thok, because the thok sends the player to max speed while the homing attack slows the player down. A better comparison would be the thok with the jump-dash in Secret Rings, but something to point out is that this is not necessarily something that should prove or disprove the game's relationship with the modern Sonic games, because it was added as an appropriate ability fitting to Sonic's character in a 3d area. The reason why every 3d game seems to use something like it is that it is pretty much the only practical ability for Sonic.
...come to think of it, most 3d games have this ability in some form or another.

Now if we really want to be technical, SRB2's lack of slope physics makes it more classic Mario with classic Sonic gameplay. However, I do not believe it is very much like the modern games, or even CAN be like the modern games without slopes, scripted events, and a more complex enemy behavior system. (for the bosses, I know that all of the enemies in SA-onward are ridiculously pointless grunts)
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Old 08-24-2009   #5
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I think this is more of an SRB2 Discussion rather then a debate. Moved.

I will reply to this topic with my thoughts later.
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Old 08-24-2009   #6
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Is the current stance on SRB2 that it is emulating the Classics in 3D or is it the merging of the Classics with the Mordern?
Neither. The stance has always been to replicate classic Sonic as accurately as possible in Doom and be inspired by the original games. The modern games don't even come into the design at all. This does not mean "we are emulating S3K as accurately as we can", and it also doesn't mean "intentionally avoid things that SEGA did in SA1/SA2", but it does mean that when there is a question of where to go in our design, we look back to the original games for guidance. We don't have the slopes or the remote ability to do the classic Sonic running on walls and loops, but there are a lot of things we can pull from the original design, such as flow, a sense of speed, and the ability to explore your surroundings at whatever speed you'd like.

Sonic 2 has two playable characters, Sonic and Tails. If you play as Tails, you cannot go Super. While Knuckles could always go Super, he was also only playable in the game where every character and their mother could go Super. We've gone back to the design from Sonic 2 (and it so happens, SA1), where Super is a "special" thing given to Sonic for being the main character, similar to how Super Saiya-jin was so much more awesome in DBZ before every character in the show could do it.

The thok, or as it was called in 1998 when Sonikku designed it, the "Air Spin Attack", is a move that was given to Sonic to solve the lack of anything interesting for a double jump in SRB2. In S3K, Tails could fly and Knuckles could glide and climb, but Sonic was stuck with the insta-shield and the shield specific moves. Since SRB2 doesn't have the shield specific moves for Sonic, clearly we needed to give him something other than the insta-shield, since that's highly weak in 3D. The thok was actually designed before SA1 came out, so the difference in design from modern Sonic games is natural as different people will design different things to solve the same problem.

tl;dr: No, we are not trying to use things from the modern games and merging them with the classics. If we pull something from the modern games for SRB2 proper (as in not weird modding features) it's simply because it's a good idea and we'd be stupid not to.
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Old 08-24-2009   #7
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Very true, Mystic. I could see that it was based off of classic Sonic games, but I though the thok was just an implant of "modernness" into the game. Same with 1.09 lightdash. I wouldn't mind since my favorite official Sonic game is SA2B. SRB2 is an awesome 3D lookback at the older games, with the only thing making it imperfect is the unfortunate lack of slopes in the DOOM engine.
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Old 08-24-2009   #8
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The thing is, the thok is older than Sonic Adventure, so it's not like we were looking to SA1 for guidance on potential solutions to the problem. It just so happens we ended up with a moderately similar design to what SEGA themselves did.
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Old 08-24-2009   #9
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lack of slopes in the DOOM engine.
Just a small correction, but it isn't the DOOM engine that's stopping it, it's the Software renderer. It's perfectly possible to make slope physics in the Doom engine, they'd just not look like slopes. They'd look like stairs with very tiny steps.
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Old 08-24-2009   #10
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Ok, But when last I heard, Emerald hunt in 2.0 was busted. And Knuckles was able to go Super in S&K Alone. He was always able to go super when he was playable until Sonic R. Sonic CD used Time Stones that only affected the time streme. Tails was the only one who ever needed the Upgraded emeralds in S3. The last Time Knux ever went Super was Sonic Heroes and even then it was Semi-Super, Same with Tails as he lacked his Golden fur and birdies.

Also the Game gear games lacked an emerald 7 and the Advance series followed the Adventure formula of Super instead of the Classic one


Oh and Kaysakado, What about ZDoom? That has slopes in software mode.
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Old 08-25-2009   #11
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Basically it sounds like you're just complaining because you can't go super as Knuckles. But let's put it this way. How would it change your gaming experience? Oh! You get a slightly faster Knuckles! Joy! At least Super Sonic gives you some new powers like float and an increased jump height. And you seemed to have failed to notice that SRB2 is "inspired" by older versions, rather than a carbon 3D copy. And Super Knuckles wasn't very fun to play as back then. Really, I fail to see any problem with Knuckles not going super.
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Old 08-25-2009   #12
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IIRC there's a devmode command to change your ability, so just change Sonic's and then go super. Problem solved.

Actually, it seems more like Glaber is complaining that he couldn't beat the last special stage as Sonic and so he beat it with Knuckles but still wants to go super.
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Old 08-25-2009   #13
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Actually, it seems more like Glaber is complaining that he couldn't beat the last special stage as Sonic and so he beat it with Knuckles but still wants to go super.
I lol'd.

Though I found SS7 harder as Knuckles anyways. I'm just weird like that. :/
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Old 08-25-2009   #14
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Take it as you will, I just made the topic because I was confused about the whole Emulating the Classics in 3d argument. I made in in the coliseum because with how I was making the first post I confused myself as to weather it fit better in there or here.

SS7 is a different issue all together. (*Makes his own nerf*)
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Old 08-25-2009   #15
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Ok, But when last I heard, Emerald hunt in 2.0 was busted. And Knuckles was able to go Super in S&K Alone. He was always able to go super when he was playable until Sonic R. Sonic CD used Time Stones that only affected the time streme. Tails was the only one who ever needed the Upgraded emeralds in S3. The last Time Knux ever went Super was Sonic Heroes and even then it was Semi-Super, Same with Tails as he lacked his Golden fur and birdies.

Also the Game gear games lacked an emerald 7 and the Advance series followed the Adventure formula of Super instead of the Classic one
I don't think you get our definition of the classics here. The games we use as source material are Sonic 1, 2, 3K, and CD. Of those four games, Knuckles is playable in one of them and can, indeed, go Super. Sonic games after 3K are not involved in the decision here.

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And you seemed to have failed to notice that SRB2 is "inspired" by older versions, rather than a carbon 3D copy. And Super Knuckles wasn't very fun to play as back then. Really, I fail to see any problem with Knuckles not going super.
This is our reasoning in a nutshell.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles, while a phenomenal game, took one thing way too far, and that's super forms. The implementation in Sonic 2, where only Sonic can do it, is far preferable to S3K's version where every character can go at least Super, and some characters even had a Hyper form, as if that's necessary.

We are perfectly willing to admit the classic games have faults. Super Knuckles is a mistake according to the people who designed SRB2's design docs, myself included, and that is why he's not playable in single player.

Would you rather we called the new match items "Power Stones" like I did in the design documentation?
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Old 08-25-2009   #16
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Doesn't matter what I think they should be called. If you called them power stones that's your call, not mine. I only have as much influence on the game as a suggestion in the suggestions box.

Edit: Thank you for sharing your reasoning for why Super Knuckles will never be in single player officially. (Super Knux argument dropped) And for clarifying the thing about SRB2 and the Genesis Generation Classics.
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