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Old 04-25-2015   #141
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Every major game changing feature is put under scrutiny before getting added. Slopes are no different.
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Old 04-25-2015   #142
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One argument against slopes that I could see:

The single player campaign's level design already has an established look, flow and progression revolving around lack of slopes. If you add slopes, suddenly you have to design your game around it. You have to create mechanics revolving around movement on slopes, and you have to create architecture that isn't just all flats and then SUDDENLY curved surfaces show up. Making it functional and able to actually mesh with the gameplay is doable, but it's yet another time sink.
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Old 04-26-2015   #143
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It's not so much adding slopes to levels that's the problem; it would take some time, but that part can be handled without having to revamp much of the game, especially when you consider not all levels need slopes, and a few mostly-decorative slopes can be added without needing major design overhauls. The bigger issue is getting the physics to feel right without being completely overpowered; while our gravity is probably to a fine scale with the classics' (and maybe even a bit higher compared to our player sizes?), the horizontal speed of SRB2 is much higher than in the classics; classic Sonic reaches a speed of 6 while running and 12 from a spindash, and you can scale those up to about double to be SRB2 scale. SRB2 is about three times faster than that horizontally, which leads to getting much more ridiculous launches. A launch of 75 ground speed off of a 45-degree slope would send you around 2.6x as high as a red spring, which is already quite a bit of height to deal with in a design setting.

There's also the issue of how the current system of ground movement and friction will affect slope usage, but tbh I don't think that's too much of a problem.
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Old 04-26-2015   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
One argument against slopes that I could see:

The single player campaign's level design already has an established look, flow and progression revolving around lack of slopes. If you add slopes, suddenly you have to design your game around it. You have to create mechanics revolving around movement on slopes, and you have to create architecture that isn't just all flats and then SUDDENLY curved surfaces show up. Making it functional and able to actually mesh with the gameplay is doable, but it's yet another time sink.
This argument is like saying GFZ1 needs to be reworked to use polyobjects. No, the old level designs are fine; some slopes can be introduced to get rid of staircases, but that's about it.
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Old 04-27-2015   #145
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Originally Posted by toaster View Post
You... you have seen the slopes, right?
Sorry, but slopes aren't exactly a selling point for a game.

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i wonder if anyone has one of those CEZ1 remake gifs on them that Nev3r shown off in #srb2fun
And another remake. While remakes are GREAT and all for things to be picked up, it's not really NEW content. It's just rehashing an already made stage for the sake of looking prettier all the while not getting other things done. That time spent dazzling up an already perfectly fine stage could be spent on a completely new one. Rehashing stages should really just come AFTER all the levels that are planned to be done ARE done IMO. .3.;
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Old 04-27-2015   #146
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If the devs played by those rules, CEZ's primary gimmick would still be buttons.
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Old 04-27-2015   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning-Fox View Post
And another remake. While remakes are GREAT and all for things to be picked up, it's not really NEW content. It's just rehashing an already made stage for the sake of looking prettier all the while not getting other things done. That time spent dazzling up an already perfectly fine stage could be spent on a completely new one. Rehashing stages should really just come AFTER all the levels that are planned to be done ARE done IMO. .3.;
Yes, I agree! Which is why we should go back to 1.x CEZ, 2.0 THZ and the old MKB maps.

But seriously, while new content is cool, remade versions of older stages is still new content. I think we can all agree that the THZ2 revamp in 2.1 is a breath of fresh air compared to the original, and take it from me, the CEZ1 remake is that times ten. In addition, the revamps are important to keep the game's overall quality up; new players aren't even going to see the hot new ACZ2 and whatever else we make if they see CEZ1 and decide the game has shitty level design.

And quite frankly, as much as people get tired of us saying this, it is still something we do in our free time. The stuff that gets worked on depends on what we're interesting on working on at the time, if anything.
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Old 04-27-2015   #148
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So is CEZ1 going to get the same treatment as THZ2? Now I'd really like to see one of those gifs.
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Old 04-27-2015   #149
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Yes. CEZ1 is the worst stage in the game currently and is the highest priority for a proper revamp. The revamp is actually far enough along that you can complete it, but it's missing alternate paths currently.
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Old 04-27-2015   #150
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I see. Yeah, true, I do agree THZ2's revamp was a good step to take. I don't see how CEZ1 is THAT horrible though, is all. It's... a pretty decent length level, looks fine, and sure as hell isn't really the most boring level or anything. Just seems unnecessary, is all.
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Old 04-27-2015   #151
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*wanders back in after yet another 6 month absence*

Hey guys, what's u-

...Oh my God.

My favourite zone, Arid Canyon Zone getting an Act 2? New and Improved Sonic Sprites? Deep Sea Zone (Which I really enjoy, but feel is missing just a TINY bit in order to be legendary) is getting revamped and looks super pretty?!

GOLD STAR, GUYS! :D

EDIT:
The main thing I hope is fixed up for the new Deep Sea Zone is that Bustable block maze. I feel it really kills the pacing and mood.

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I know we've been over this on IRC, but I guess we've forgotten to mention it on the forums: match super forms are headed to the scrap yard.
Awww. :( I totally understand your reasoning and agree 100% that it's not fun to face of against a Super Form because it's a "Winners win more" mechanic, but I'll be sad to see them go, because it was a neat little idea.

I wracked my brains for a little while for a way to implement Super forms in a non OP way, but as you said, Match is complicated enough already and adding more complex or weird mechanics is not the best idea.

I DO hope that whatever new mechanic you guys are developing for the Emeralds at least still uses the "Super-Form-Transform" sound effect and sprite when you get them all, even if the actual super forms are gone. You know, sort of as a nod to what the emeralds normally do?

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Yes. CEZ1 is the worst stage in the game currently and is the highest priority for a proper revamp. The revamp is actually far enough along that you can complete it, but it's missing alternate paths currently.
Huh? Really? I actually don't mind CEZ zone 1 all that much. It's not the best stage in the game and could use some improvement (especially that insane set of wrecking balls on the Knux path), but...

Oh well, not going to complain. :) You guys always do a fantastic job with the revamps and I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys do.

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The feature got replaced with a new, better version. While you'd think nobody would bitch about this, you would be surprised.
...I still remember the whining when the awful old special stages got replaced with the MUCH more fun NiGHTs special stages. x_x

Which is kinda shocking because those new special stages are better designed and more fun to play than the ACTUAL NiGHTs game, IMO.

EDIT:
Oh, and I once again appreciate your steps to make Match more inviting. That Free respawn shield is a wonderful idea and it was super well implemented (It'll save you from taking a hit for free, sure. But not only does it not have any abilities, it's highly visible, making you an easier target to spot. Great balance design!). I look forward to seeing more of what you guys can put out. :)

Last edited by Aegix; 04-27-2015 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 04-29-2015   #152
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What issues are you trying to address with the CEZ1 revamp? I'm just curious since I wasn't particularly bothered by the current rendition.
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Old 04-29-2015   #153
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Originally Posted by RedEnchilada View Post
Yes, I agree! Which is why we should go back to 1.x CEZ, 2.0 THZ and the old MKB maps.

But seriously, while new content is cool, remade versions of older stages is still new content. I think we can all agree that the THZ2 revamp in 2.1 is a breath of fresh air compared to the original, and take it from me, the CEZ1 remake is that times ten. In addition, the revamps are important to keep the game's overall quality up; new players aren't even going to see the hot new ACZ2 and whatever else we make if they see CEZ1 and decide the game has shitty level design.

And quite frankly, as much as people get tired of us saying this, it is still something we do in our free time. The stuff that gets worked on depends on what we're interesting on working on at the time, if anything.
So you're saying you'll add something to CEZ that is even more innovative than the goop? That's got me excited. I'm a little upset about match supers, but I guess I've seen plenty of positive changes that offset that.
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Old 04-29-2015   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
What issues are you trying to address with the CEZ1 revamp? I'm just curious since I wasn't particularly bothered by the current rendition.
The... lack of content and general emptiness probably?
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Old 04-29-2015   #155
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CEZ1 is boring at best, but what's the excuse for RVZ1?
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Old 04-30-2015   #156
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Wait, what's wrong with RVZ1? It needs expansion and polish, yes, but what's there is fun.
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Old 04-30-2015   #157
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I've stated my general opinion on the quality of our levels as of 2.1 in this thread (which you should feel free to bump if you'd like your opinion heard): https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=38604#22

For this specific comparison, CEZ1 is shoddily put together and boring, with some truly awful design on the right route on the start and the Knuckles route. It's offensively bad.

RVZ1 is dated and needs more spice to it, but the core gameplay isn't terrible and the basic platforming is fine. It's just extremely old and ugly. It's not pulling the whole game down in the same way CEZ1 is.
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Old 04-30-2015   #158
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I would have called RVZ1 "old and ugly" before the 2.0 revamp, but it looks and plays fine now. Its only problem is that it repeats too many of the same basic platforming obstacles at points.
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Old 04-30-2015   #159
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I always felt that the 2.0 Red Volcano, together with 2.0 Arid Canyon to some extent, as both only had one act, kinda filled this trope quite nicely, especially how RVZ had next to no pits. Along with Arid Canyon it also felt a lot more speed-focused compared to DSZ and CEZ, kind of similar to Labyrinth and Starlight Zone, as seen in the link above.
(Of course, this left ERZ with a gigantic difficulty spike which was a bit unfortunate.)

In RVZ, I especially like the upper path where there's this platforming segment with crumbling rocks you have to jump across quickly. Sure, it's simple and the visuals are dated, but the level itself I really like.
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Old 05-02-2015   #160
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What the heck is RVZ? Sometimes you guys confuse me with your zone abbreviations.
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