Can we start making the transition into a newer, better project?

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I could really use some money. Right now I'm in a bit of a jam. :(

But if it isn't Sonic, even what little fanbase and development team we have couldn't hold together. If it's a new engine, we don't have any experience in it and wouldn't be able to do nearly as much as we can until much, much later. No matter what, we would basically end up starting all over -- not just the game, but the entire community would be rebooted, and most of the developers would probably be cycled out, and to even get to that point we'd need to get a pretty damn solid base and set of concepts working to begin with, otherwise no one would even know what they're doing and the ideas would just split and conflict with each other all over the place (preventing progress because everyone has a drastically different idea for what direction it should all go).

In other words... SRB2 will always be SRB2, and if we were doing anything else, it wouldn't be the same game, same engine, or same community and developers.
 
It's already been touched on, but not very specifically: do you guys have anything against eventually going the Freedom Planet route once the game is completed? It would remain as SRB2 in both spirit and gameplay...

- Enemies (other than Robotnik) are already original, level textures are too
- Change the character and item sprites
- Change some music
- Release it on steam for $X

(Alternatively...just saying...if you guys opened a donation page, I would donate - not necessarily a large amount - but I would definitely donate. You guys deserve it.)
 
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Here's the problem with going the "Freedom Planet route" that some people here are suggesting here for SRB2:

  • Creating decent original characters in the first place is not easy, let alone creating a set of them to fill in the exact same shoes of Sonic, Eggman and the rest of the characters. Characters in SRB2 also involve a lot a sprites as it is, so this part would take a while even if you had the perfect set of character designs ready.
  • Once you've gotten rid of Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, there's not really much reason to keep the replacement characters with the same abilities anymore. This could lead to a complete overhaul of how each character's gameplay works, since we're no longer restricted by the characters themselves.
  • Once you've gotten rid of the Sonic characters, is there much reason to keep using Sonic-related items, especially the rings? Or even replacing them with items anything remotely like them? I don't know what Freedom Planet does, having not played it myself, but I can't imagine it uses Sonic's usual ring/health system. (I could be wrong of course)
  • New characters also probably means a new story (if we even bother to keep a story around at that point), since the old one in the intro kind of assumes you're already familiar with the routine of the main characters. If we just made the new characters act exactly like Sonic and co themselves, that would be just silly. =P
  • This engine isn't even fully ours anyway, it's a modification of Doom Legacy's. I don't think we could get money from the game, even if we replaced all the assets and gameplay, unless we moved to a different engine altogether ...which has a boatload of implications of its own, obviously.

In other words, the "Freedom Planet route" would likely involve remaking the game massively to work around these new circumstances. It's asking a lot anyway, seriously. I would know, I'm a creative sort of guy.

If I'm assuming anything stupid though, feel free to call me out I guess.
 
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I kind of feel like I want to join in and defend CobaltBW but also defend the opinions of everyone else as well. I totally get it. Doing something out of pure passion and desire to do something out of your own will is definitely important and I think that true passion leads to the best products. Srb2 is a great game (in my honest opinion) and I always play it every now and then and especially when I'm feeling nostalgic. It's a great game. It is a great experience. The game has given me many memories and most of the love I have for this game comes from the modding scene. Srb2 was/is a great experience and it's nice to see how far we've come (and I've been playing this game for a while as has everyone else).

But guys, as much as I understand where you all are coming from, I feel you really need to take into consideration where Cobalt is coming from, not just from a financial standpoint but just how important making and getting a profit is. I feel like as he mentions going out and making a new game with greater tools is not him suggesting you do something because you want to make money but rather that you at least get paid for your labor of love that you're sharing with everyone. Life is expensive, and if it's a labor of love I can tell you being financially covered WOULD have had this game finished much quicker, I can promise you. You all claim you wouldn't do it for the money and this game is for pure dedication and I'm not 100% disagreeing with you. But if you could financially be covered to make your games it would be done quicker, not because you're rushing something to make a profit off of, but because you're covered financially to have the time TO do something like this.

You all have talent. You've completely restructured a code and made something entirely different. You've added skyboxes to a game engine that didn't originally have skyboxes. You've pushed the limits of an engine that wasn't there. What you guys have been doing is great, and while I'm not telling you to quit working on Srb2, I am agreeing with Cobalt that I do think you all should consider collaborating on a newer bigger title. Something you CAN sell. Not because you want to profit off of it but so you guys can (safely) continue doing what it is you do. If you don't want to make video games that's an entirely different story. But if you do, being in a financially safe situation would make an entire difference.

Just my two cents though. Also I should point this isn't a "hurry up with srb2 gais" post I'm just saying that being able to financially support yourself makes a huge difference. Trust me, I know. Since I've personally gone freelance I've had more time to make more art than I ever have in the past 4 years because I've had to work 40-50 hours a week at a job just to pay the bills. Art is something I love but it's not something I had on the top of my mind after coming home from work completely beat. When I had the spare time to work on my art since I had gone full freelance, I've done nothing but create every single day out of pure passion. Not because I wanted to profit for the sake of profiting, but because I could finally do what I've always wanted to do and be financially in control and not be desperate for money. Sorry for the anecdote there.
 
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I don't know about getting the whole community to create a game, but I've certainly called a person or two from here to help out with a profitable game. I'm just not calling the entire community to help out because I doubt everyone even feels like working with it. I know that I personally work on SRB2 as a side project, rather than a main thing. It certainly helped out with my art skills, to say the least.

Speaking of that, CobaltBW, can you appear on Skype some time? It has to do with Time Drifter.
 
I don't have much else to add to Red, Mystic and Rob's statements except that SRB2 is my passion project. Changing anything away from the core of what SRB2 is risks rupturing this game, this community, and my passion for it.

Basically I guess I don't need money for this. I fell in love with it when I was young and it's managed to worm its way into my heart ever since. Really, no other project would be able to hold me like this game has.
 
I'm not in the mood to quote and individually address points, so I'd just like to say that "you guys need to make money some day!" is, although well-intentioned, among the most condescending things you can say to us. We all know money makes the world go round, and most of us are trying to make that happen for ourselves, but SRB2 has always been meant as a hobby project for us; we don't need someone being our proverbial parents telling us to get a real job. Let us have our hobby and we'll figure out our finances some other way. Whether we go to other projects or head to different fields entirely is up to each individual person.

And anyone who's implying we can turn this project to a profit is completely ignorant. Even if you accounted for all of the issues MI brought up, what kind of audience does this have? Mostly younger people who don't have their own income. You're not gonna get rich off of the kids roleplaying on the master server!

(Well, maybe you could. I wouldn't wanna waste time going down that road, though.)
 
I am not personally suggesting you all take the Freedom Planet route because I think that's a terrible idea. Keep Srb2 as it is. Keep it a side project or Hobby. What some of us are saying (or at least what I'm saying) is that you should try to take your desire for creating things into something that could make you a profit. Not because you want money for the sake of money but so you all could work on something that would allow you to make more stuff. You claim that your market would just be the people who come here and while I'm not going to say you're 100% wrong, but a LOT of people who used to play Srb2 or still do are a lot older than you think, and some of us would promote the hell out of your new venture.

As an example, I wish to reference Roly Poly Putt as a prime example of someone moving on to other projects. I don't think SSN Tails looks at Srb2 as a failure or a waste of time (as far as I know) and none of us here are trying to imply that. Or at least I'm not. What I am suggesting, is not that you "move on" from Srb2, just that you should try to venture into something new. Make a new game with original IPs and do something you could make some sort of profit on so you could potentially spend more time on this if it's actually what you desire to do. But if you don't want to be a game designer almost full time, none what I have said applies to you.

I mean as far as I am concerned, I hate to leave a projcet unfinished, but at the same time there's not as big of a desire to finish a project (regardless of how much you love it) over making financial gain, not because you like making money more than doing what you love, but because you can't AFFORD to do what you would love.
 
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Way to completely ignore my entire first paragraph. We all have our own plans for handling our finances. We don't need to pull everyone into a day job project for that.

Also, how much attention has RPP gotten outside of our core community? As far as I can tell, it's almost zero. It really isn't a great example to point at and say "you guys should be doing that to make your living!" Admittedly TraceRace got a modicum of attention in the casual market despite this community caring not one lick about it, but I highly doubt you'd get very many people from here on board with making casual games.

Again, I'm not saying working on a separate project would be bad. All I'm saying is, for a lot of us, it simply isn't in the cards. All this talk of "wasted potential" reminds me of high school guidance counsellors forcing my whole graduating class to sign up for a college plan that was useless to most of us; most never finished enrollment, and there's a good chance it just led some people to useless degrees and debt. Kind of a waste of everyone's time, right? A lot like coercing people into a separate project would be.
 
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Keep in mind that working on a new project doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be Doom-like and doesn't even need to be 3D. Literally could just be some Game Maker side project that a few people collaborate. Any kind of approach would be working toward the goal of generating content and breathing some new life into the place.

I don't have much else to add... I understand the copyright issues with monetizing SRB2, just didn't know if PayPal or Kickstarter were workarounds or not.

[...] I'd just like to say that "you guys need to make money some day!" is, although well-intentioned, among the most condescending things you can say to us.
...And reacting with the tone of "Yeah, thanks mom" is a nice way to piss off the person you're arguing against, so let's not throw around hyperbolic bullshit like this. All I'm doing is trying to explore some options to boost the community, not trying to dictate how you pay rent.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

Also, how much attention has RPP gotten outside of our core community? As far as I can tell, it's almost zero. It really isn't a great example to point at and say "you guys should be doing that to make your living!" Admittedly TraceRace got a modicum of attention in the casual market despite this community caring not one lick about it, but I highly doubt you'd get very many people from here on board with making casual games.

RPP:PC wasn't publicly released/advertised outside of this community, so it's not a good point of comparison either way.
 
I don't have much else to add... I understand the copyright issues with monetizing SRB2, just didn't know if PayPal or Kickstarter were workarounds or not.
Obviously they aren't. SEGA owns Sonic and we'd be foolish to try to make money off of SRB2, either directly or indirectly. You'll notice that we have never had ads on our web page anywhere or any other method of even making indirect profit from SRB2, never mind direct, because if we want the project to stay around, inciting the anger of the people who can shut us down is a bad idea.

There's also the obvious issue of where the money would even go. This is not an organized, professional team. This is a group of people who come and go casually and put in effort when they have spare time and motivation. We're not exactly clocking in from 9 to 5 here.

RPP:PC wasn't publicly released/advertised outside of this community, so it's not a good point of comparison either way.
The original RPP for phones sure was a commercial product intended to make a profit, though. AFAIK it did not make back the cost of development, so it was a failure in that regard, but just because the eventual PC port wasn't intended to make money doesn't mean the original venture wasn't trying to.

...And reacting with the tone of "Yeah, thanks mom" is a nice way to piss off the person you're arguing against, so let's not throw around hyperbolic bullshit like this.
RedEnchilada posted a response to how I read your post, too. It sounded like a combination of "go get a real job" and "stop having fun doing what you're doing; you should only have fun this way."

To give you another metaphor, imagine we're a group of children building a fort out of sofa cushions and you're coming around telling us that unless we can make money out of building a fort, building forts is pointless and we should do something else.

Building SRB2 isn't a job for us; it's a fun hobby we dabble in during our spare time. Being told to stop having fun and do something else because maybe we could make money that way is condescending.

All I'm doing is trying to explore some options to boost the community, not trying to dictate how you pay rent.
How exactly would putting up a paywall boost the community? The community is quiet because people aren't interested in what's on offer here. Making things cost money would just reject even more potential members. I don't see what you're even trying to suggest here. How would introducing payment boost forum involvement and mod releases?
 
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I know the idea of starting up a new project sounds exciting, but I'm pretty sure we would end up fighting since almost everyone has their own ideas for their own projects, and they are likely incompatible. Be this the srb2 community or the sect of the waffle duck, I think that a collision of interests would be imminent.
 
I guess I'll chime in, having been on all sides of this coin.

Having some of us get together and work on another project? Great idea. Involving monetary compensation into the mix? Bad idea. The reality is, more than ever, you are not going to recoup your costs unless you are either a) a AAA studio making AAA titles, or b) hit the 'app lottery'.

We hear about these things... Angry Birds, Temple Run, Freedom Planet... there are many more examples, but the point is this -- they are a speck in a universe of millions of titles. It is literally a better use of your time and money to go down to the corner store and purchase a lottery ticket than trying to make and sell entertainment software.

Roly Poly Putt, at least from MY perspective, was to never replace a full time job. I did expect to at least recoup my costs, however. After seeing the performance of RPP, I had no goals for TraceRace, which was also not financially successful. As of today I am about $8,000 in 'debt' between the two. So it's an expensive hobby.

I did very much enjoy the learning process, and becoming familiar with iOS/Android development lead to me being able to secure a better full time position. If a group of us gets together, the motive should not be profit, but instead to gain experience to apply to obtaining something in real life (i.e., a better job).

This is kind of what I wanted to start with RPP:PC, as like SRB2, the code structure is familiar, it has 2D, 3D, golf, and 'Mario Galaxy' modes, I created a 'Wizard Object Config' (WOC -- sound familiar?) with a super-friendly object/animation/state editor with sprite/model preview, and a level editor expandable to work with other indie projects; with objectplace where you just click on the 3D scene to place a row of rings whether on a flat ground or varied terrain.
It's a nice 'bridge' from those familiar with Doom/SRB2 to modern game development.

I've been thinking of throwing up the level editor on GitHub, as I think it would garner interest from other indie developers. As I get more free time, I would also like to revisit RPP engine work, and develop a new, small title.

OK-- but you still want to talk money. Fine... but a flat organizational structure will not work -- several professional studios talk about their failures with a flat structure. You need your proverbial Sonikku/SSNTails who still has the final say on what gets included and what doesn't. That person should also be responsible for all related expenses -- purchasing the tools and equipment that the team members need, or keeping track of approved expenses by team members. It's my opinion that those who spend the most on the development should be the first to receive any incoming revenue, perhaps a larger % until the expense is paid off, where the % will then level off to be similar to that of other members.

Hypothetically, let's say I want to start some new project and a bunch of you have talents that you feel you can share and want to join in. While everyone is welcome to share their ideas, the designated designers will have the final say on what happens. Suppose the designers want some music done, and it requires equipment X, which costs $X. Musician gets approval from me to purchase said equipment, and the musician now gets priority revenue from the final product. Perhaps his % share doubles until he has recouped the cost. Keep in mind the final %s will not be able to be calculated until the product is ready for shipping, because the # of people to be involved and the work to be done is pliable.

I'm really interested in how Freedom Planet handled this, as they had lots of contributors. From what I heard so far, work from some people was published without compensation or a signed release (although it doesn't appear to be completely intentional), and to me this seems both unfair and setting up for legal disaster. The group of people that worked on Freedom Planet must have been awfully nice and selfless, because I'm surprised it hasn't blown up by now.

TLDR; everyone on a project that has the potential to be for-profit needs to have zero expectations of profit and regard any incoming revenue as a bonus. There should not be expectations of the work supplanting a full time job or being able to buy a house in the Hamptons. That will lead to friction, stress, and conflict and be bad for everybody.
 
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I'm really interested in how Freedom Planet handled this, as they had lots of contributors. From what I heard so far, work from some people was published without compensation or a signed release (although it doesn't appear to be completely intentional), and to me this seems both unfair and setting up for legal disaster. The group of people that worked on Freedom Planet must have been awfully nice and selfless, because I'm surprised it hasn't blown up by now.

There may be some people who do not in any means want any regards to the work they do, given they had the choice. The only issue with that (intentional or not) This basically allows the producer to say "No, you didn't work on this" Which provides no evidence for any future jobs you want to apply for. I got stuck in this scenario after working part time at a Sonic's. Apparently the boss was prejudice enough over my racial background as to deny I actually worked there. Later on when I wanted to take a job at an aquarium for the summer, I was originally turned down due to lack of work experience. It took two letters to the employer's office to finally convince them I could handle the job. My main fault, is that I was not in a worker's union (I didn't know they existed at the time)

Then, the aquarium closed down due to lack of funds, once again leaving me without a reference. The world really drives me insane sometimes!

Now, in relation to a new project idea, that's nice and all... but you'll all be stumped at the question... "What do we create?" No, not just you, or them, or someone else, we.
 
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I wonder if this is the first time we've seen a topic like this in SRB2MB? Seems to me I remember people saying "sheesh, why are you still working on SRB2 anyway?" Well I'm glad people are still working on it, because I enjoy coming back here from time to time and finding ways that people are being creative.

When I first started going from playing SRB2 to editing SRB2, it was because I realized there was a way I could experiment and change up the way a game that I enjoyed (however brief it was at the time) looked and felt. I saw a release where someone changed Greenflower zone to look like a beehive which got me into editing textures which eventually led to me making all new textures for Jazz's multiplayer level pack, and from there to the Arid Canyon Zone texture contest which got me into the dev team.
I stuck around until the combination of college and the fact that SRB2 no longer felt so much like it was "missing something" left me room to move on.

The thing that made me really excited was that I could see the difference in SRB2 with the things I was making. This was an excellent creative outlet, and at that time was much more accessible than making an all new game that can do everything everyone else does. This is what I see when I lurk around the topics and see what people are doing now.

Now new textures, new sprites, even new functionality is the norm. It's not hard for me to imagine why people stick around as long as their personal lives don't --really-- start to get in the way. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the creative folks around here.
 
This is going to be a controversial topic, so let me start off by saying I've always liked SRB2 as a game, I think it's been great and I'm always impressed with the stuff that people come out with for it. But at the same, I have too much respect for the developers (both for the main game and for modding) not to wonder why we're still wasting our time with this shit.

SRB2 is basically dead, and as time goes on it's just going to rot. It's noncommercial, it attracts the Sonic fanbase (not a good thing), it's an absurd timesink to maintain this hideously outdated engine, and there's been newer games that grant the same level of customization as SRB2 and do it way better. Most of the awesome new things we're seeing out of the community are patches to the engine that allow it to do things that other 3D games have been doing for decades. I see something like SRB2 Top Down and anything that Red makes, and the part of me that doesn't say "This is really awesome" is saying "You should really just be making your own game".

I think the combined efforts of this community is absolutely capable of coming out with a new project on a brand new engine and making actual money off of it. And it could even just be a spiritual successor to SRB2 with new characters and assets, or it could be completely new! I just want to see you guys making something great and actually being rewarded for your efforts.


I may be a minority here, but here´s my opinion:


Firstly, SRB2 is far from dead. I´ve been around since Demo 2 days and development has always been like this: Many years of minor or no updates, and then some mayor update. How many years passed until THZ2 and THZ3 were made? How many years passed until 2.0? I´ve seen people say that SRB2 was dead each and every time a year or two passed since the previous versión. That´s far from true, until the developers say so.


In fact, while the community isn´t that lively, I see more progress than previous years, because:
1) Developers actually post some preview screenshots, talk about new features, etc. That rarely happened on the first versions.
2) There may be fewer movement, but I see a lot more amazing things on the editing topic. Less quantity, but better quality.


I´m more interested in the next SRB2 release than in any official Sonic release. I´m more interested in the next SRB2 release than in any fangame project out there. You know why? Because this game has great polished gameplay, it´s not rushed, and it´s the only project that keeps progressing while most others die in the process. I´ve seen countless of Sonic hacks and fangames that weren´t complete, and just a few decent finished. But SRB2 keeps progressing and getting better. I would take this over project number 9853 which has stunning graphics, promising but buggy gameplay, that gets abandoned quickly. I would take SRB2 engine over any Adventure game or even Generations even without slopes.


I´m not against SRB2 developers getting money or making their own game. In fact, I LOVE Freedom Planet and I think it´s a fucking materpiece, but that´s their decission to make, and saying that this project doesn´t work and that SRB2 is dead is far from true.


Again, I may be a minority here, but although I rarely post on the forums, this is the only webpage that has lived for 14+ years on my favorites, just waiting for the next awesome version. And everytime there´s a new release, I get more and more amazed and I love even more this game. And I actually play tons of videogames per year. SRB2 developers have all my respect for all their amazing work.
 
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