Contest Discussion Topic (2.0.X)

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an easier level editor: I don't mean easy to learn, because it is already. I mean easy to edit the map itself. I feel I'm knitting a Persian carpet, hours and hours spent to detail a single room since people just don't want a "clean" map.
Nobody expects a lots of detail. A map like Azure Temple has very little detail, but what is there is used very effectively. I think something like that satisfied everybody. You don't need to "prettify" your map all over.

bug fixes: wall collision (a must)
I think 2.1 fixes that.

some features that could help and/or speed up the setup of gimmicks in the map, because setting "tons and tons and tons and tons of tags" to make only one map element is in fact "ridiculous".
You mean like Lua scripting?

Off-topic: I don't expect new official maps to play SRB2... I play them for 1 or 2 months and I get bored. My stay here was due to the production of custom content and level making. Back in the time I joined, the official maps were just an excuse to download and play a quite-unfinished game and then to get deep into custom content and level making. Once the custom content runs out, you get bored of playing the same maps no matter how awesome they are or were.
SRB2's main audience isn't this community, it's the masses of people out there who have yet to discover the game. SRB2's intent was always to be a full game, not just an engine. Without official maps, we run into the same problems other Sonic engines have: People pick it up, say "that's a great engine, but where are the levels for it" and get bored. The official maps give the player a first impression so he can form an opinion about the game before delving into custom content. And this first impression pretty much decides if they stick around or not. Had I discovered 1.09.4 at my current age, I doubt I would have joined this community, because to be honest, the single player campaign in 1.09.4 sucked. The only reason I'm here is because I was 14, had never played a Sonic game and didn't know any better.

So what I'm saying is this: Without a good single player campaign (or good official multiplayer rotations, for those interested in that aspect of the game), people won't be interested in SRB2. And the better and the longer the campaign is, the more likely is becomes that people will enjoy themselves, want more and stick around for custom content. 2.0 is still fairly mediocre in that department, but 2.1 will be a massive improvement. This might mean little to long-term community members like you, but you're already here, so you're not the target audience.
 
(Wall collision)I think 2.1 fixes that.
Good to hear!

You mean like Lua scripting?
Eh... You mean Lua scripting like Lua programming language? A good excuse to learn a new programming language. ^^

Had I discovered 1.09.4 at my current age, I doubt I would have joined this community, because to be honest, the single player campaign in 1.09.4 sucked.
That's why I said the official maps were just an excuse: SRB2 had to have some shit in it, including those horrid button-hunting CEZ to start with, in order to make a playable product. Back in those days, what most of the people wanted to play was the custom content, precisely character wads, level packs and EXE mods, which was way more interesting than the official campaign.

Personally, the official campaign in no way motivated me to stick around and get into in level design. To my eyes, SRB2 looked like another "damn-short-closed-pack-read-to-play-and-deal-with-it-ZOMG" game like any other game that wouldn't let me modify or extend upon... until the day I joined the MS and discovered I could add wads and create wads... not mentioning the EXE mods. What made me stick around were the custom content. And level packs like Multiplayer Fusion by SomeGuy and JazzAttack by Jazz were the ultimate appeal to me to learn level design. In fact, my Lift Bridge Zone was based on 2 maps you find in JazzAttack (try to guess which)... Oh, the OLDCs too. :3

Without a good single player campaign, people won't be interested in SRB2. And the better and the longer the campaign is, the more likely is becomes that people will enjoy themselves, want more and stick around for custom content. 2.0 is still fairly mediocre in that department, but 2.1 will be a massive improvement. This might mean little to long-term community members like you, but you're already here, so you're not the target audience.
While I find logic and good sense in what you said, and I have to agree with you... you know, the human being, this shitty animal gifted with overdeveloped telencephalon and opposable thumbs not always follows logic and good sense.

In my perception, the interest in SRB2 progressively declined during 2.0 era -- stable during the 1st year and then declined -- and the custom content was too restricted to XSRB2 and Tortured Planet, even though the considerable improvement of its campaign and new editing features.

(In my real life experience, I noticed I can do everything logically correct, and then everything fails miserably.)

Overall, fun is illogical.

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BRACE YOURSELF ICE! YOU'RE ABOUT TO GET BLOWN AWAAAAY
Blown away like the MC servers you've been hosting? It'll be exciting. :D
 
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Or maybe we can simultaneously get the entirety of the community to migrate to a new platform, and make awesome things with that. Haha, wouldn't that be something. I was just having a discussion last night with someone, and we were discussing how level designing with SRB2 has evolved to a point where it's like trying to make something with gamemaker, because we have to find ways around all the restrictions. Whether it's covering up visual bugs with clever scenery items or simply tons and tons and tons and tons of tags, it just gets to a point where it is ridiculous.

Personally, I'd love to see SRB2 get a mesh-based engine. It could open up a lot of level design possibilities. I'm not sure if the community wants to go that direction, but it could be a good subject for at least a short discussion.

I have some code that could be useful for a mesh-based engine; the collision detection code should be quite nice if I can get everything figured out.

Just a thought...

(If this is a duplicate post, sorry; I thought I submitted this earlier, but it hasn't showed up yet, so I assume it was user error on my part.)
 
The problem here is that we have nobody on the team who has the capacity to, or otherwise willing, to recode the entire SRB2 engine. We're trying to work out the kinks we've got in the current engine to finish off the SP campaign. Most of what we need is already there. Why would we change it now? It doesn't make sense to. We have most of what we need done already. Changing the engine now would add countless years to a project that has already taken a long time to get to its current point.
 
The problem here is that we have nobody on the team who has the capacity to, or otherwise willing, to recode the entire SRB2 engine. We're trying to work out the kinks we've got in the current engine to finish off the SP campaign. Most of what we need is already there. Why would we change it now? It doesn't make sense to. We have most of what we need done already. Changing the engine now would add countless years to a project that has already taken a long time to get to its current point.

You're probably right. I knew my suggestion would be a bit of a stretch, but I figured that consideration of the various possibilities isn't a bad idea, even if most of those possibilities are (correctly) rejected.

I still need to figure out what to do with my code. I guess SRB2 could use a sequel...
 
That's why I said the official maps were just an excuse: SRB2 had to have some shit in it, including those horrid button-hunting CEZ to start with, in order to make a playable product. Back in those days, what most of the people wanted to play was the custom content, precisely character wads, level packs and EXE mods, which was way more interesting than the official campaign.
There's a reason why the single player campaign used to be an excuse for custom content: It was terrible. Today, SRB2 is a reasonably interesting game on its own, and that alone will make more people stick around. The fact that you and me and everybody else who joined before 2.0 even gave the game a chance is surprising considering what our first impressions must have been.

In my perception, the interest in SRB2 progressively declined during 2.0 era -- stable during the 1st year and then declined -- and the custom content was too restricted to XSRB2 and Tortured Planet, even though the considerable improvement of its campaign and new editing features.
Two things: Interest in SRB2 also declined during the 1.09.4 era. Not as sharply as now, but if you look at the OLDC, you see a large spike in 2006 and then a progressive decline until the end of 2008, which was when a new release was announced. It's a normal thing for interest to decline between releases. Regarding the custom content, there was a lot more than just XSRB2 and Tortured Planet. Just look at all the OLDC entries.
 
like source maybe?

It would be more than just a source mod; it would be a completely new engine, written from the ground up. Think Sonic Adventure vs. Sonic Generations; they probably share almost no code.

I assume you meant, "source mod," right? Otherwise I may have just made myself look somewhat foolish...
 
He meant the game engine called Source.

Well, I guess I look foolish, then. I thought that interpretation didn't seem right in context. I probably should have asked before I replied.

The Source engine looks amazing, but there's the issue of licensing, and I've already written some generic engine-type code (not a full engine yet) that I'd like to put to good use. When it's finished, my collision detection should be nice; it uses sweep tests to eliminate the "bullet through paper" problem: no need for thok barriers! It still needs a good broadphase and support for entity-entity collision, though. I'm trying to settle on a good method for those. In the end, it'll probably be much simpler than Source, although I might eventually integrate it with Bullet Physics. I'm writing it in D (http://dlang.org/), so I'd need to make a complete port of Bullet to do that, though.
 
Well, I guess I look foolish, then. I thought that interpretation didn't seem right in context. I probably should have asked before I replied.
See guys?! That's what happens when you type lik dis because you think you're funny.
*shot*
 
We're not porting the game to any new engine, guys.

I didn't think that would happen, but sometimes you have to throw some potentially crazy ideas out there to keep things fresh.

It doesn't mean I can't make my own Sonic fangame, though, and that's what I plan on doing (eventually). SRB2 is the only good 3D Sonic fangame I know, and I think it could use some company.
 
Go for it, bro! Just remember that you're not the first to come along and claim to be doing something similar.
 
(and if we did I'd opt for ZDoom anyway)
(I know it's so tempting, isn't it?)

I'm not sure if the community wants to go that direction, but it could be a good subject for at least a short discussion.
The thing is, SRB2 doesn't belong to the community. It belongs to Sonic Team Jr (except those obvious "parts" that are owned by other parties, of course), under a closed development and provided "as is" with editing capabilities.

We had lots (?) of discussions about new engines or "enhancements" on the current engine, or "going full open development": most of times such discussions hadn't ended well, or just in "ZOMG LOLDRAMA!"

When it's finished, my collision detection should be nice; (...)In the end, it'll probably be much simpler than Source, although I might eventually integrate it with Bullet Physics.
blm768, I didn't know you were creating a new engine from ground up. Sorry if I missed some detail. I sincerely wish you all the best. I hope I can hear any news from it any time soon. =)
 
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The thing is, SRB2 doesn't belong to the community. It belongs to Sonic Team Jr (except those obvious "parts" that are owned by other parties, of course), under a closed development and provided "as is" with editing capabilities.
Good point. The community does at least influence the developers, though, so my wording isn't completely wrong ;).
blm768, I didn't know you were creating a new engine from ground up. Sorry if I missed some detail. I sincerely wish you all the best. I hope I can hear any news from it any time soon. =)
I'll be sure to let you know. Once I get something vaguely near playable, I'll put it up online.

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I've probably hijacked this topic long enough. I'll stop now...
 
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...and speaking of returning to the original point, don't count on this being in the next contest. Probably the next next contest.

pX7rW.png


T0CQt.png


clxwC.png


Very much in-development, this is. And I know, I know, ripped sprites... they're currently placeholder until I go and make my own.
 
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