Yes Sir, yes, yes it is.
Allow me to introduce myself : I'm Sonoob (because I suck at choosing usernames, and because it fits me so well). I love your game, thanks you for making it !
I am a somewhat moderate (not casual) player of SRB2 since... well it doesn't matter much. My most time playing SRB2 was in 2.0 but I remember playing since at least 2006...
I am posting here shamefully : I suck at SRB2... like very hard.
I just lost to the Metal Sonic race at ERZ Act 3... Yes I did. Losing 49 times in one go without ever getting to the actual boss fight vs Metal Sonic himself.
Huh, before even that I was strugling against ERZ Act 2 for days now, I just could'nt beat it.
Granted the game was made easier in many places since 2.0, but 2.1... Well it's too much.
I know what you guys have been saying for years... (is it years already since 2.0 ? I am not even sure) : Egg Rock Zone is the ultimate stage of SRB2. Like the Bomb, the Graal, the must, THE best zone.
For the longest time I would have just suck it up and kept going. But after struggling for hours against yoku blocks while being knocked back by an unfair yellow jerk, and after losing 40 grinded lives against Metal Sonic, already knowing that there was a boss fight at the end of it and the a true final boss fight in ACT 4, I just can't take it anymore. Oh yes 40 + 3 continues = 49 lives if I am not mistaken.
7 emeralds with Sonic. I never accomplished this feat ever before. Like, never ever. With Tails I did in 2.0.6. With Sonic I was just strucked at the 7th, playing endlessly the 7th special stage, until I went "pff, I'll go take a completed save on the Internet, then."
But not even once did I whined about it. I was just not good enough and that was fine, I knew it already.
Now however, I did complete the 7 special stages with Sonic in 2.1 (very enjoyable, by the way) ... And I am tired...
What exactly is my problem ? Well you see... SRB2 is not what we could call a "mainstream game". Every day I see people knowing SRB2, but also people not knowing a damn about it.
SRB2 is spectacular ! Like insanely good ! I like it so much because it reminds me of Sonic 3 and Knuckles... So awesome in so many ways.
But it's just moderately known.
This game is gone on a... How could I call it... hmm... Well.
This game is like scrap metal turned into a sword made sharper and sharper as the time goes on. But so are the developpers, and good players in general.
But what the good players have in common is that they are (mostly) here in the community... In a hard core (pun intended).
Now what if SRB2 was mainstream ? I think you can answer this by yourself.
I am not whiny. (really, I actually feel bad for complaining here)
I try very hard.
Too hard maybe.
But this game got insane with time, insane like the sharpest blade could only be manipulated by a master.
Sharp game is effectively a very nice thing. But not for everyone.
I actually very much like how SRB2 is so skill based. This is a beautiful thing and players can feel themselves getting stronger with time... Proof that this game is well made. But this game, near the end is becoming more and more cattering to only the most hardcore of players.
My guess is : it is because it was made by hardcores, for hardcores... I guess that's fine. But I am not in the hardcore camp myself.
You guys just became so focused on perfecting the game even further, sharpening it more and more to please your desire of fun challenges, you created, knowingly or not, a incredible gap between you and the rest of the player world. I am not even sure your are actually able to see it anymore. This ERZ is just like you dreamed it to be : like yourselves.
Honestly, at this point I just want to beat the game. Sonic, 10 lives, 7 emeralds collected, Egg Rock Zone. I want to see my credits. I want to have my emblems for it, and I want my damn level select so I can play with my Super Sonic even more.
Why is Egg Rock Zone a regular level ? You guys actually believe this Zone is a normal one ? I played Azure Temple level pack on 2.0 way back months ago. And it was easier.
Egg Rock Zone is a Hyper level, or at least Super level.
I don't want it changed (that's up to you, not me). I don't want it removed.
I want to complete the game without having to play a damn Hyper level. Make it optional, make it easier, make it something !
No.. Nope. I don't think my message alone will convince you, if you are a good development team. I don't actually know what should be done or not to a level so well made and implemented in your game.
I would not listen to myself in your position if I suggested such a change as "optionnal ERZ" because it would fuck everything up, and I agree perfectly with you.
I am not here to suggest a solution I have not. I only want you to be conscious of the very existence of this problem.
I sucked it up when I could not save after every stage when getting some hard chaos emeralds (like 5 or 6) in the past (2.0 and 2.1), so I just had to beat a damn boss everytime in order to save.
I sucked up not having a good time in Arid Canyon Zone, even if it was improved by placing platforms where I could just thok when falling froms those rails.
I sucked up that pesky Volcano, eating my rings and that lava moving wave that killed me so many times. (I no longer fear it though)
I sucked it up having to restart an entire zone when that Stupid Robotnik/Eggman beat me very hard on the Act 3 of Castle Eggman. I beated him back the day after, when I got how to fight him.
I can take it guys, I know the game is good. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think so. But please, even if that might sound offending to Sonic the Hedgehog fans : please just slow down.
Think of us, players that are not that good. 7 emeralds and grinding 40 lives in a disco room is not skills. But a good game should ony be this hard in the unlockable extras. New players aren't you. And I am not even a new player.
Think about it please, that's all I ask. Sonic 1, 2, 3&K. Any Mario platformer...
Good games like these knew how to be hard and manageable to even new players.
I love Sonic 1, 2 and 3&K, so do you. Do it for the invisible mainstream playbase.
PS : I wanted to add that somewhere, but I forgot so here we go :
Death pits. DEATH PITS EVERYWHERE !
I guess you understand it too.
PS2 : I read my message again... Not deep enough. I still hope someone understand.
I know how you feel, same thing happened to me in 2.1. Started a new game as sonic, had a good time until the CEZ difficulty spike. Had to replay the first level 2 times to get past it because it was full of death pits(I fell into the last one before the goal and into others because of the grass on the edges). That wasn't too big of a problem for me.
CEZ3's Boss wasn't too hard, at first I didn't know what to do and thought that I need to launch sonic up using the middle chain, but that didn't work. Later I found the other one and defeated the boss. This boss isn't too much of a challenge if your character has a air action or decent speed.
ACZ1 wasn't too difficult for me, probably because I knew it a bit from 2.0.x. The only part that was difficult is the end part, but that's because sonic gets speed if you jump off the belts, and the platforms didn't have much space at the end of the level.
RVZ
I knew that this level was going to be hard and a "hell" like level. I played this one a lot in 2.0.x(but never finished it), so I knew about most things.
The level is fair and not too difficult, the only bad thing was near the end of the level, the lava waves. They need more space so that the player can stay on the platform and then jump. Currently you need to jump off before the other platform appears if you don't want to get hit. Other than that it's a nice level.
ERZ
ERZ1 took me some tries, it feels like a final level and does this well. The main problem are the bottomless pits here, but once you know how to control the characters correctly, it gets easier and not too hard. The only problem here are the crushers near the end of the level. Even as sonic, they sometimes randomly crush me, even if I'm on full speed and using the speed shoes.
ERZ2
Now this is the stage that created a lot of problems. You finally got past ERZ1, which was challenging. ERZ2 here is harder, way harder. Instead of only having bottomless pits, this zone also has a lot of other instakills for the player, want to know the best part about it ? You need to do the COMPLETE ERZ in 3 lives. You can grind for lives, but continues only give you 3 lives and put you back at the beginning of the stage(which is good, because you don't need to replay ERZ 1 over and over again) but you won't have more than 3 lives. ERZ2 has crushers, lots of bottomless pits, appearing platforms and upside down physics, yay, more fun.
The platforms aren't a big problem for me because I played megaman, and they are a lot more fair here, the platform still stays on for some seconds after the next one appears and doesn't have a different timing. The big problem of it is that snail. It shoots at the player and is in the way. You can't remove it without falling down, and it doesn't help that the platforms get smaller to stand on near the end. That part and the beginning of ERZ2 were the most difficult parts for me. The fan physics at the beginning are a bit strange, and the other room with the moving walls has bottomless pits everywhere. You can easily overshoot the teleporter and fall down behind it.
ERZ3 is the biggest pain as sonic. A metal sonic race ? good. Platforms ? Ok. Bottomless Pits=why ?
There is way too much platforming over bottomless pits. Remember that sonic doesn't have anything other than the thok to keep up, and that doesn't help a lot with the platforming. There should be an other slower way if you can't do the platforming.Srb2 doesn't have the best physics, slow platforming might be possible, but this is a fast race, and fast platforming, with moving platforms over bottomless pits doesn't work that well.
The battle with metal sonic was good, exept when he tries to fly away wehn you can hit him(I'm not talking about the teleport move), so you need to thok or glide into him, which doesn't work well(or I don't like it because you could overshoot and land in the bottomless pit) and dodging his attacks is very difficult(I'm talking about the spheres, and this needs to be done for the ring emblem). The problem here is that if you fail, you are back at ERZ1 and you have to replay ERZ2 AGAIN. YAY, so much fun.
ERCZ's boss was fine. It was not too easy but not too difficult. The only thing that should be changed is his knockback, make the rockets not push you back if you are invincible(after getting hit).
The main problem of ERZ is how the difficulty spike goes up in act 2(no, this doesn't mean that act 1 needs to get harder)
I'm stuck with sonic and completed the game with knuckles. SRB2 is a very well developed game and I enjoyed playing it. This isn't a ragepost or something like that, I only wanted to tell you what I thought about ERZ and some of the earlier levels.
An other thing was the Knuckles Paths:
THZ
Nothing special here, a basic tutorial that knuckles has to take different parts.
CEZ
The first spikeball climbing was fine, but the second one is too difficult. I can't see which one appears where and if you get hit once you get back to the beginning of it.
ERZ
This part was very annoying. The falling down walls can crush knuckles, and the camera doesn't want to help you here. The easiest way to get past that part is to drop down using the spin button.
Spherallic's hysterical joke aside, you guys need to cut the hyperbole and realize that there are going to be differences of opinion, especially on the question of difficulty. I do agree that ERZ is currently too hard, and I forgot to remove that Snailer in ERZ2's Mega Man room before release, but the statements that we're that out of touch (from BOTH sides) are also pretty absurdly overblown as well.
If you want the game improved, I want to hear SPECIFIC issues you had, not "WAAH IT'S IMPOSSIBLE DELETE IT" and other similarly stupid shit. There is clearly room for improvement and places we could turn the dial back to be more reasonable, but the feedback in this thread is pretty much useless.
Was that snailer going to be removed for real, or is this a april fools joke ?
I'll post a list on issues that I have with ERZ2 later on, is that ok ?
Okay, how about this?
ERZ1 -
1. Too many bottomless pits
2. That laser hallway with impossible to avoid lasers
3. The big hallway with the grey platforms and electric walls
ERZ2-
1. Yoku blocks
2. Snail badnik spamming
3. Tricky gravity puzzles
(other stuff I don't remember)
ERZ3
1. Metal Sonic is too fast for Tails or Knuckles, they're too slow!
2. Timer should start when Metal Sonic is IN the arena, not just outside of it.
3. Make it more obvious that you CAN pass that one room without having Metal break those spikes
4. Bottomless pits!
5. Make it clearer on how to hit metal
6. Make Metal's attacks easier to avoid
7. Make Metal's attacks more predictable so you can see it coming.
ERZ4
1. Give a bit more reaction time for the bomb shots
2. Decrease the knockback on some of those attacks! Geez!
3. When the barriers go down, have Eggman JUST shoot the flame capsules. It's too easy to get knocked off the platform at this point."
4. Make flame pools smaller
5. Give the player more space to lure Eggman into the lava
(Oh, and some advice for DSZ3 because I also absolutely hate that level)
DSZ3
1. Give the player some time to actually hit Eggman
2. Make only ONE of the clones shoot missles. Nine at once is so overwhelming.
3. Give the player time to get out of the water like in 2.0.
You can avoid the lasers, it's not that hard.
I think that metal sonic should copy the player speed, so that he can be defeated by everyone.
Brak Eggman needs to have a little timer after getting hit, because he can hit you with his bombs(not the ones on the ground) right after you hit him.
DSZ's boss needs to be slower with his shock attack, the best I can do is get on the spring, which launches me up, but then I get hit while going up.
Below is edited for what I think are good ideas. My comments in bold.
I don't think ERZ should be nerfed too much, it's designed to be killer hard, especially as Sonic. Some of the issues I deleted are easily resolved by playing as Tails.
I think that the electricity on the walls is fitting. Maybe keep the effect of it ?
Yoku Blocks=Megaman Blocks=Disappearing Blocks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opADNvgeZYY
Sorry, had to be done, but this shows the problem of appearing blocks. They are more fair in srb2 because their timing is the same, but the later blocks are smaller and that snailer is in the way.
I think SRB2's difficulty has become... insular... especially with 2.1. For example, a lot of the new snailer placements in ERZ are really unnecessary... snailer was NOT intended to be placed in such a way that he's firing in front of you as you head towards him (I'm looking at you, red ERZ2 megaman block area).
GFZ3's boss is also an example of the insular difficulty change. This boss is horribly hard for being the first. It's refreshing having his additional attacks, but it really is too much. Some of those attacks should be moved to other bosses (instead of firing that laser, I could see the RVZ boss maybe doing it with a flamethrower).
CEZ3's boss is also confusing in the pinch stage. I thought I had to fling myself up from underneath Eggman, not fling myself into the crowd stands where there would be another chain waiting for me. (That stage needs SRB2 Kart-like audience, BTW).
I agree that the GFZ1 boss is probably too hard for very new players. The new moves are nice, but maybe a bit too hard for new players.
CEZ's boss was ok for me, but there should be rings up there on the crowd stands. Eggman should maybe play 2 different sounds when speeding up the spikeballs or when changing direction(I was thinking about the laugh sound from ERCZ for changing direction, and the shooting sound from the old GFZ3 boss for speeding up. Maybe the spikeballs near eggman should be a little bit deeper(while he is in his pinch stage, so you can hit him a bit easier).
I completely agree with everything in this post. I have never been able to beat ERZ ever. After about 50 lives wasted, three ragequits, and that message saying 'Is Egg Rock Zone too hard for you?' when I quit the game, I didn't even try anymore.
The difficulty in these levels is absolutely insane. AZURE TEMPLE is easier than this. And you can't justify that 'oh, the difficulty is perfect, the game is just missing two zones'!
That doesn't give you a get out of jail-free card to make this hellhole of a level even look acceptable.
This same argument can also be applied to the new bosses and levels, which require you to go through so much shit to get through the level.
Take a look at Sonic 3. The final zone was not hard as hell, it was fun to play with some difficulty. Sonic 1's scrap brain was lackluster, but still not as hard as this. Sonic 2? I loved Sky Chase and Death Egg.
This sudden difficulty spike in the THIRD ACT OF THE GAME is very unjustified and it's one of the only times where I've felt like putting a game down.
I completed the game as knuckles, got to ERZ2 with around 30 lives, left it with 5 left. Metal wasn't too hard as knuckles.
THZ was a even bigger difficulty spike in srb2, THZ3 was one of the harder bosses as sonic, if you thokked him because you got knocked back and fell of the boss platform. Now this is finally fixed. DSZ's difficulty spike is ok, there aren't real bottomless pits there, the only hard part was the one with the crushers.
This is not any Sonic 1, 2 or 3! This has greater challenges. Also, I lost almost 70 lives in ERZ four years ago. But when I finally finished, I was thankful for all those obstacles.
ERZ has too many insta deaths. Players start with 3 lives, and only get 3 after a continue(I know it was harder in the past, but it's still hard now), which isn't much because there are a lot of death traps. What are you going to tell a player that didn't get continues or extra lives ? Replay the game ?
Pfft. Azure Temple has Trapgoyles, pits everywhere, Bubble Buzzes, and a constant danger of drowning.
ERZ has lasers, reverse gravity, and Snailers. I can get through all of ERZ on one life using sonic, but I die all the time in ATZ. IMO, ERZ doesn't even come close to the difficulty in ATZ.
They aren't insta death. ERZ has a lot of instadeath pits and crushers. From what I've seen I'd say that ERZ2 looks harder than ATZ but I haven't played that one yet.
