Why is so difficult to make a slope?

Spazzo said:

Priorities, Neo, priorities. Of course we'd love to be able to seamlessly integrate slopes into the SRB2 experience!

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But I thought we might as well switch engines if we were going to add slopes!

Spazzo said:

We just don't have any plans to proceed with that massive undertaking at this time. We're investing our efforts into more resource-efficient features and additions.

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Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Reggie Fils-Aime.

For the record, I still stand by my opinion of loops in 3D. They just don't work. Simple slopes, on the other hand, those would be incredibly useful.

I believe this is what Spazzo is trying to say:

*) Let's add slopes! It's okay if we don't modify the physics.. just keep things perpendicular.

*) Why doesn't Sonic tilt with the slope? That is super lame. It also keeps me from making loops and he looks ridiculous on steep inclines! The real Sonic games don't do this!

*) Let's modify the physics (rewrite entire game logic to be based on a vector system). Let's create more sprites for every possible direction.

*) Owait, the PLR file is now about 10mb. Maybe we should move to models. Now we are abandoning software mode. Now we have to fix up OpenGL and make it work properly. Software mode runs like balls now anyway due to the slope calculations.

*) Editing tools need to be updated to work in a vector-based environment instead of an axis-aligned world. Maybe we should break Doom level format compatibility.

*) The official levels now look very flat and sucky. We should fix them up to take advantage of the new slopes. Some of this will involve revamping entire sections to take advantage of the features.

*) Modders get confused as hell trying to wrap their heads around a vector based game system. What's an UP vector? What's a cross product?

*) Congrats, you may as well write a new game from scratch.

If you don't believe it will follow this path, then you are a fool. Every feature we have added it has always left people wanting more, especially if it is to mimic what another Sonic game does. If you restrict gameplay to a certain set of rules, then the player adopts the Suspension of Disbelief.

I should also add that making the game logic and physics work with a vector based system is no trivial task. It's seriously just like writing a whole new game.

It's one thing for a slow-moving marine to scoot around tight cooridors mowing down stupid demons to walk on a slope, it's another thing for a fast platforming character to do so.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Cineblast, if you feel that you have the obscene amount of time, skill, and resources to expend on something as game changing as slopes, I won't stop you. STJr. tried doing the very same thing once, and I think you can figure out for yourself what happened.

Whew. I was waiting for SSNTails to show up and explain how much of a pain in the ass this is. Bravo, good sir.

Honestly, I think what you're saying is overkill. All I would like to see is slopes where you have staircases right now. STJr. has always ignored insane demands in the past, so I don't see why this should be an exception.

Screw slope physics, just make it act like a flat sector, except the player's Z position is altered as he climbs the slope up and down. This is what we've had for years via the tiny staircase method, and it works fine in the current game design. Sure, it would be cool to have Sonic speed up as he spins down a slope, but that is secondary and something we can live without.

Basically what I'm trying to say is I'd like slopes just to overcome the two big limitations of staircases: great performance drop, and the fact that you come to a sudden halt every once in a while.

Neo Chaotikal said:

Screw slope physics, just make it act like a flat sector, except the player's Z position is altered as he climbs the slope up and down. This is what we've had for years via the tiny staircase method, and it works fine in the current game design. Sure, it would be cool to have Sonic speed up as he spins down a slope, but that is secondary and something we can live without.

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Allow me to be the first to mention that this would feel VERY unnatural. When the analogy is a staircase, it is a little easier to deal with it, but when it's an actual sloped floor it would feel VERY wrong.

Personally I'm of the opinion that people should use literal stairs that look like stairs instead of faking slopes. It removes the quirky look and has no framerate issues. It also removes the unnatural feeling I just mentioned, since it doesn't stand to reason that you would accelerate down a staircase, while you WOULD accelerate down a slope in classic Sonic physics.

Mystic said:

Personally I'm of the opinion that people should use literal stairs that look like stairs instead of faking slopes.

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So what is GFZ2? The exception that makes the rule?

Don't get me wrong, either staircase-slope in that level handles great, I just wish they had a better looking coat of paint. Would slightly changing the visuals make those slopes feel that unnatural?

Personally I've never liked the way those "slopes" feel in GFZ2. It's always irked me.

I do understand that slopes aren't going to happen, and I've resigned myself to that fact. What I don't understand is why we have to adjust the angle of a player on a slope. If we were to make a slope, why don't we set a modest goal as far as game physics are concerned? Just make it act like a really fine staircase, but look like a true slope. Possibly we could try to make it more fancy in the future, but for now why overthink this?

That's if the devs even tried making slopes again, which I doubt will happen.

SSNTails said:

*) Let's modify the physics (rewrite entire game logic to be based on a vector system). Let's create more sprites for every possible direction.

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No need to. Remember gravity reverse? The devs didn't have to create extra sprites for it. (or did they?)

Gravity reversion is as simple as flipping a sprite on a vertical plane.

Say we add running on walls... we would need to draw tons more sprites to accommodate looking on a player that's running up an incline.

Plus we can sort of preview this problem in NiGHTS mode

No, it's far worse than that. NiGHTS mode is a simple rotation of a 2D sprite. The reason slopes are problematic is that it would require sprites for angled viewing of the player. This is most currently obvious when playing in OpenGL, as it makes the player sprite look like paper. When you use first person and look down at another player, it's still using the same sprite that it does when you look straight at him. Sloped floors would require us to make sprites for all of those cases where you're looking at the player from a different vertical angle than horizontal, and that's just not practical in the slightest.

Ever play Nights Mode with more than one player? I'm sure the sprite of the player ahead of you 90 degrees or so doesn't rotate right. For that matter We don't even see the behind sprite when a player is 90 degrees ahead of us.

SRB2 supports multiple side-angles for the NiGHTS sprite. It's kind of a hackish way the multiple views are implemented, but it works. I just hadn't gotten around to (or caring) about drawing every single viewpoint.

Uuuuh... guys you forgot the slopes. In what VERSION would the slopes appear? I wanna know!
printf("Making them work... hahahahahahaha");

Can I just say something here? It sounds as though the physical act of supporting slopes is much less of a problem than angling the players to conform to the slopes. Despite everything you guys have said, I'm not even convinced that we should need to angle the player sprites. Let me address the two most common arguments against my point of view:

Argument 1: It would look stupid for the player not to tilt, and the steeper the slope, the stupider it would look.

Rebuttal 1: This would not be a completely novel problem at all. This happens already in slopeless SRB2...with fake slopes. It looks just as ridiculous in there. You might counter that steep pseudo-slopes are bad level design. Well, steep real slopes would be bad level design too. True, this means that slopes would not add a tremendous amount of possibilities to level design, but they would add some, and it would get some slope-obsessed whiners to shut up, wouldn't it?

Argument 2: Loops would be impossible without angled player sprites.

Rebuttal 2: I'd like to point out that fully-functional loops would not really do that much for SRB2 gameplay anyway. Loops, corkscrews, and upside-down speed-run paths are cool, but they are much more representative of "new" Sonic gameplay than "old" Sonic gameplay, and it's the "old" feel we're trying to recreate with SRB2. True, the originals did have some loops, but they were only a once-in-a-while gimmick there.

The thing is, you guys are right to think that adding in slopes would only get people hungry for more ridiculous engine transformations, but why should you have to follow them? You guys are the big bosses, and the development of SRB2 is not a democracy. You try to please the SRB2 community whenever possible, but you have the right to draw the line anywhere you want. Why should you draw it at the creation of slopes? You could support slopes but draw the line at angled slope physics, and we would still be something of a new feature. Just think about it.

(There's some irony in that paragraph...me reminding the devs that they have the final say in what SRB2 becomes, and that they don't have to listen to anyone if they don't want, but telling them what they should do. Just thought I'd point it out myself before someone calls me out on it)

We could just have the player go into spin sprites for loops. That way it doesn't look so ugly.

But srsly, I don't see why we'd waste the time making something so apparently useless.

Fawfulfan said:

This happens already in slopeless SRB2

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Tell this to Mystic. Like I said, all I'd like is to have another way to provide vertical variation in a level without resorting to jumping or springs. In a nutshell, what staircases do now. Just easier to make, prettier and with higher performance.

Limit the angle of a slope to -22.5º through 22.5º degrees if you want. Gentler slopes make the incorrect physics less apparent, anyway.

Neo Chaotikal said:

Tell this to Mystic. Like I said, all I'd like is to have another way to provide vertical variation in a level without resorting to jumping or springs. In a nutshell, what staircases do now. Just easier to make, prettier and with higher performance.

Limit the angle of a slope to -22.5º through 22.5º degrees if you want. Gentler slopes make the incorrect physics less apparent, anyway.

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I don't think we even need to do that. For one thing, competent level designers would try to keep their slopes in that range anyway. For another, steeper slopes might still be useful for scenery, if the area is blocked by invisible FOFs or fake floor/ceiling planes.