c_3Elements

SpiritCrusher said:

Wait, you don't even care about level design 101? You should never, ever, under any circumstances do that. Your map will suck if you don't abide it, that's what it was made for. And it really shows, because your level is quite horrible.

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While LD101 is a big help to most people, and it is filled with good advice, not reading it isn't automatically gonna make a level bad, and a bad level won't automatically get better if read. I mean, I can't remember the last time I read it, and judging from the comments, I think I can make a good map here and there.

Just like someone can read LD101, follow it to a tee, and still make a bad level. (lol I used to do that all the time)

I'm more talking about how he actively chose to ignore the advice given.

D00D64 said:

Okay, I'm not gonna beat around the bush here; I hate this pack....................
There is nothing good about this pack at all.

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SpiritCrusher said:

Wrong. You can change it.

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Ok.... But I'll need to make another map, since DOOD64 did not like anything. And I was saying this about the opinion of DOOD and not the people(all) opinion. And....I think I'll do something like RP maps with some challenges, like tyrcity.

SpiritCrusher said:

Wait, you don't even care about level design 101? You should never, ever, under any circumstances do that. Your map will suck if you don't abide it, that's what it was made for. And it really shows, because your level is quite horrible.

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WAIT!!! It's only sceneries!! what type of sceneries fits into an air and deadly based map? And in a closed earth based map with various types of crushers challenges?I guessed in thousands of these things, and i didn't found(Or something very scarce) any scenery that fit with these themes. Moreover, a lot of people here do not give a damn attention to sceneries.

SpiritCrusher said:

Wrong again. Everything that has at least some merit is let into the Releases section. There have been plenty of absolutely horrible maps (including yours) in here.

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Again I sayed this for DOOD64, just a reply of the opinion of DOOD64, I didn't sayed this for all people. And another question: WHAT TYPE OF MERIT DOOD64 GIVES FOR THIS MAP?!?!

PHCC said:

Ok.... But I'll need to make another map, since DOOD64 did not like anything. And I was saying this about the opinion of DOOD and not the people(all) opinion. And....I think I'll do something like RP maps with some challenges, like tyrcity.

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My name isn't "DOOD64".

Tyrcity is a terrible example of a good RP map. SF94Serv is of a much higher caliber than that. I suggest you take his example.

PHCC said:

WAIT!!! It's only sceneries!! what type of sceneries fits into an air and deadly based map? And in a closed earth based map with various types of crushers challenges?I guessed in thousands of these things, and i didn't found(Or something very scarce) any scenery that fit with these themes. Moreover, a lot of people here do not give a damn attention to sceneries.

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Scenery can mean a lot. For example, if you gave me this level with no totle, I would have NEVER guessed this was an air or earth themed map. If anything, it's outer space (just barely) or something like that. And trust me, there's more than enough materials in vanilla SRB2 for an Air/Earth map. and if there arn't for you, there's always custom things.

PHCC said:

Again I sayed this for DOOD64, just a reply of the opinion of DOOD64, I didn't sayed this for all people. And another question: WHAT TYPE OF MERIT DOOD64 GIVES FOR THIS MAP?!?!

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"Merit" means "you tried somewhat, and it's at least playable". That petty much means you don't even have to qualify for a "D" grade to get in releases. Frankly, this map has nothing good to me, but it could get worse than this.

1- Ok... your nick is D00D64.
2- Thanks for the tips.
3- I know what is "merit".

PHCC said:

WAIT!!! It's only sceneries!! what type of sceneries fits into an air and deadly based map? And in a closed earth based map with various types of crushers challenges?I guessed in thousands of these things, and i didn't found(Or something very scarce) any scenery that fit with these themes. Moreover, a lot of people here do not give a damn attention to sceneries.

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If you think that Level Design 101 consists only of scenery tips, you have obviously not read it. But still, there should always be scenery, and "I didn't think of any" is no excuse to not have any. Just to prove my point, here are excerpts from Level Design 101 that apply to your maps:

Level Design 101 said:

• Don't neglect sector layout or thing placement for the sake of gimmicks. Despite the effectiveness of creative and intuitive gimmicks, they are icing on the cake. If the structure of a level is not sound, no amount of gimmicks can save it. Gimmicks should be incorporated into a map, not be the map. Even Egg Rock Zone, which relies heavily on gimmicks, doesn't neglect basic design for them.
• Make sure your level has the right size. Cramped, small passageways make it hard to run fast and break up the flow that makes Sonic tick. Overly huge maps make the level confusing in single player mode; it will make other players hard to find in Match mode; and it will make the stage drag on forever in Capture the Flag and Race mode.
• Forcing accurate jumps can be annoying. Since SRB2 has fast and slippery controls, the player should rarely be forced to perform extremely accurate jumps, especially not over death pits and other hazards. It is very hard to control exactly where the player will land, so there should always be some leeway for failure. The tiny platforms in Neo Aerial Garden Zone are the bare minimum, and even those should be used sparingly. Likewise, spring chains that require mid-air adjustment should be very rare and require careful adjustment to ensure the player has a chance to make it through.
• Don't overuse death pits. If the player can't move without dying, the player won't tend to move much, and that's not fun at all. This also applies to other hazards like damaging liquids. Those hazard should provide a challenge, but should be always avoidable for an experienced player.
• Make the stage become more difficult as it progresses. The player should be eased into the level with small and simple challenges and then increase the difficulty step by step. If the beginning is too challenging, then the player might be frustrated and quit, and if the difficulty never increases, the player might feel bored. However, bear in mind that the difficulty also depends on your intent on how hard the stage should be. Not every stage needs to be difficult, but a noticeable difficulty curve is nice if the stage is intended to be challenging.
• Avoid usage of buttons. Occasional use for a secret or other trick is okay, but if your stage is based on pressing buttons to open the exit, you should rework the level so you don't have to. If you need the player to trigger a certain event, try to get creative with the means of triggering it. Buttons are not the only option.

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That is not everything, but the most obvious ones. And yes, I totally added some of these to the page just yesterday.

Ouch. Too much difficult (Do not fire at me, you ALREADY know I'm a rookie at SRB2 and I didn't destroy Brak Eggman). But cool.

ok....
I didn't breaked all of these "rules".

1: The stage begins easily, and close of the finish, the challenges turns more and more hard.
2: I forced the player to do accurate jumps only one time, in one of the crushers
challenges.
3: Buttons aren't too bad, but I will remove the doors that close the finish, and i will use it for make other secret place.
4: The player changes the size only one time.... I won't chage this.
I readed the level design 101, and this is my first co-op map, at least now... I know what the people like and don't like in a map.

Errr... only one question: SpiritCrusher, you played the lvl?

PHCC said:

1: The stage begins easily, and close of the finish, the challenges turns more and more hard.

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Actually, the beginning is one of the most difficult parts.

PHCC said:

2: I forced the player to do accurate jumps only one time, in one of the crushers challenges.

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Actually, that narrow beam in the second act applies to that too, even if you don't need to jump.

PHCC said:

3: Buttons aren't too bad, but I will remove the doors that close the finish, and i will use it for make other secret place.

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Buttons are bad, especially in the quantity that use them (math problem).

PHCC said:

4: The player changes the size only one time.... I won't chage this.

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Who talked about player size?

PHCC said:

Errr... only one question: SpiritCrusher, you played the lvl?

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Of course I did, otherwise I couldn't cite examples from your level right?

Who talked about player size?

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Oh... sorry.English misunderstood.

Hi. I played this wad and unfortunately this has to be the worst SRB2 pack I have ever played in my life. I'm sure there are worse out there though, but that's never a good thing to cling to. The levels look boring, the texture choices are awful, and the gameplay is frustrating. I suggest you practice making a normal SRB2 map with good design instead of focusing on gimmicks.

ERGH. I just played through this pack, and, contrary to what you said, you didn't miss a single chance to do something wrong in your level design. Here's a list of things you need to fix (at least, the ones I encountered before ragequitting on both levels)

1. Huge, empty rooms should not exist. You need content, and the HOMs are just raping your first level.
2. You should not use a single texture and flat for everything.
3. Gimmicks cannot come at the expense of visuals. You have interesting ideas, but your levels are hideous and there's no denying it.
4. You should never have flat, straight sections where the sole challenge is dodging enemies. That just sucks, period.
5. You need to pick enemies appropriate to the level, and don't bunch them up the way you did.
6. You need to make your rings float.
7. A single gimmick should not completely dominate a huge swathe of your level, unless the gimmick is constantly reinventing itself and coming back in new ways. A good example of such a gimmick is the intermittent gravity-flipping machines in ERZ2. In general, try to keep each challenge short and sweet, and lead into the next one.
8. You shouldn't have a lot of squareness in your level unless the scenery demands it. Make irregularly-shaped rooms and elaborate sector scenery to vary it up. And add more verticalness to your levels.
9. You need to give a colormap to water.
10. If a pool has a death pit underneath it, that pit should not be given another water texture. That's just ugly, and makes no sense. Use the PIT flat instead.

Those are just the most major mistakes. There are a lot of other minor ones that would take too much time to explain here.

fawfulfan, sure you played the newest version? He did fix the HOM and one-texture-ness in the first level.

You're right, I apologize. But my other complaints still stand.

*The rings are floating.
*this was intentional.I did this with the the intention of making the water look crystal clear, without color (what the water really is).
*That's not an other water flat, the floor is realy a PIT, but the water FOF has the same floor height as the death pit floor, making the water texture hide the PIT texture. I'll try fix these errors.

Crystal clear water doesn't look good. You should at the very least add a slight tint to it.

The level have been updated, only some problems are fixed, but I'll fix them in a future version.

This level got very lag,the level is cool getting the lag.

I've just played my own levels again and read all of the rants and critcism that were given to me. I actually laughed to myself while reading all this text and seeing how stupid I was for not doing properly what people were really wanting in this level to be fixed, and I laughed even more due to my bad english and ignorance. Also, I lol'd at the KnuxD's 1000th banned account. But now, let's just say that this level is absolutely a piece of crap, I was disgusted when I played it just for remembering some of my bad-made maps, but these are really bad-made, so I've decided that this can't stand in the releases forum being an example of one of the most bad designed maps ever in SRB2. It doesn't enter even in the old standards!

So here are my list of things that I'll do to highly improve these craps, and other things to consider :

• The first thing that I'm aiming to do is trashing all of this and start brand new levels from zero, so if you enjoyed something of this (probably not, but it doesn't hurt asking), say it now and I'll try to fit this in the new maps, althought playing this level won't be good to your health;
• The project was initially intended to be four_elements.wad, so I'll do it so, making four different levels using the four elements (you know which ones);
• I have in mind some interesting ideas for gimmicks in Air and Earth zones, so that it will actually give their respective meanings for the respective element without any need of the level title to understand what it is;
• I'll make the levels 100% explorable (or at least explorable).
• I made a really huge mistake when I did these maps, as they're supposed to look absolutely natural, so I plan them to have the least enemies as possible, and to be the most natural as possible;
• The music is definetely not going to be included in any possibility;
• I'll be posting my progress here, and until the four levels are not ready at least for a beta release, these ones still remains, so I don't want anymore criticism about them, I already know everything that I should know about these levels;
• Don't expect anything awesome, just expect something decent.

So, that is it! Now to the work.

EDIT:

Ok, I had some progress with the first level, but by now I won't show any screenshots. Instead, I'll just leave here the level names in order of acts:

Act 1 (earth) : Brittle Stones Zone
In this act you will find yourself in a mountain, maybe you can find some mines and all, maybe you'll find impossible to climb up this mountain, and maybe some rocks will kill you falling on your head.

Act 2 (air) : Windy Sky Zone
After climbing up all an entire mountain, you will go up to the sky. Wait for a lot of air currents, maybe if you go up enough you can find some secrets... or just another cloud. Here, springs won't dominate.

Act 3 (water) : Flooded Depths Zone
After falling from the sky, you go down to an ocean, and you will have to find your way without a compass.

Act 4 (fire) : Burning Island Zone
After swimming all an ocean, you may consider dying at the beach. Wait for very hot challenges... in the literal sense of the thing.