Should Super Forms be in Single Player/Coop?

We already have plans for Special Stages in 2.1. You won't be able to use SETRINGS to automatically beat these new ones.

Also, Super custom characters aren't going to happen again anytime soon. We tried it with 1.09.4, and it ended with everyone and their mother having a super form. The changes to the character system in v2.0 were made to encourage players to make more balanced and fun character wads, instead of simply setting max stats and everything on.

tailsmastermind said:

That won't solve anything do to people here WANTING to go super.

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Who needs super when you can CHANGE CHARACTERS AT WILL and make characters that can SPAWN ANY THING? Sure, you gotta stand still to change, but who needs ring draining invincibility when you can just change for every occasion? Hell, I bet you can use spin/thok items (Preferably 0 speed thok to not spawn 9001 of them and repeatedly bounce on them) to spawn invincibility monitors and speed shoes over and over, and just Swap to whoever and there ya go. Super whirlwind? Spin/thok item Red Spring. Multiglide? Clone a Knux wad and make his ability Multiglide. And super Sonic glide is a character ability, so what else is there? You have everything supers HAVE right there! Preset abilities and being able to spawn ANY thing with a change of spin/thok item can give you all the Super powers you need.

...Speaking of, wouldn't the aforementioned spin/thok ideas totally wreck Match in a slingitem-like fashion?

For tailsmastermind: Shoot! Did you read my mind?

FuriousFox said:

Also, Super custom characters aren't going to happen again anytime soon. We tried it with 1.09.4, and it ended with everyone and their mother having a super form. The changes to the character system in v2.0 were made to encourage players to make more balanced and fun character wads, instead of simply setting max stats and everything on.

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That Pandora's Box option will still be available, right? Right?

D00D64 said:

Remove the Tokens/Emeralds from Co-op. No emmys, no supers. Make it so they won't spawn in Co-op.

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What the hell, no. Just because newbies frown on everything resembling a challenge doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to go on the emerald quest.

^
What NC said, and there will still be that Pandora's Box thing, right? Please, tell me it will be available in the future ¦<

We haven't really discussed it yet. 2.1 is still a ways off, so we have plenty of time to get around to it.

D00D64 said:

Who needs super when you can CHANGE CHARACTERS AT WILL and make characters that can SPAWN ANY THING? Sure, you gotta stand still to change, but who needs ring draining invincibility when you can just change for every occasion? Hell, I bet you can use spin/thok items (Preferably 0 speed thok to not spawn 9001 of them and repeatedly bounce on them) to spawn invincibility monitors and speed shoes over and over, and just Swap to whoever and there ya go. Super whirlwind? Spin/thok item Red Spring. Multiglide? Clone a Knux wad and make his ability Multiglide. And super Sonic glide is a character ability, so what else is there? You have everything supers HAVE right there! Preset abilities and being able to spawn ANY thing with a change of spin/thok item can give you all the Super powers you need.

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Exactly! You can skin change, cheat your way out of everything, be anything you want, use everything you need...WHY would we make a fuss about Super Sonic's "Overpower"? There's areas Tails and Knuckles can STILL easier reach, and there's just a few NON-instant death pits. Just because Sonic gains an ability to do a little more than just be fast, doesn't mean he's god. Most of the "invincibility" things are useless anyways with pit and crusher use, and you STILL need skill and control to do things. More than Tails and Knuckles do for sure. You just have an advantage if you CAN control that right.

Super Sonic's not god, especially not in THIS game. And overpowerd things are there to be reached EVERYWHERE. So why put not Super Tails and Super Knuckles IN? It's not going to make anyone mad to see there's different supers than just the same old 6 Super Sonics in a netgame, and in co-op, with working together, skin changing, and the cheats there's no way you're forced to do challenges. And honestly, you shouldn't have to. Nor HAVE to be Super SONIC, 'cause he's the one who can do so.

The most thing that bothers me most, though....the ones who usually complain about this stuff...are the ones who barely even play SRB2 much. Even when it went exactly like they wanted, they're done in less a week. And when they say "it's the n00bs", no it's not. IRC, MSN and other chat programs, AND private netgames made it all about JUST as possible as before.

D00D64 said:

Who needs super when you can CHANGE CHARACTERS AT WILL

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This is an entirely different issue. I always thought you shouldn't be able to switch characters mid-stage, but was never able to figure out a way that wouldn't overtly restrict the player.

Neo Chaotikal said:

This is an entirely different issue. I always thought you shouldn't be able to switch characters mid-stage, but was never able to figure out a way that wouldn't overtly restrict the player.

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It's that + spin/thok item. THNE you can just have chars that spawn invincibility and speed shoes over and over.

I'm impressed that I'm the only player who uses Tails while everyone zooms out with Super Sonic, I like to play as Tails anywhere, except in race *offtopic* cuz he is slow and it's impossible to beat lotsa spaghetti Sonics with anyone else, so do I have choice? I guess Tails' flight should make him go faster*offtopic*

Ground The Fox said:

I guess Tails' flight should make him go faster.

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You can fly at Maxmove, isn't that enough?

...Well, not for race, but that's broken and ain't getting fixed anyways.

As for the topic, how about making the emeralds do nothing in Coop (Aside from Emerald Triggers an such like CEZ2's gate), but the Pandora's Box feature allow all chars to do so?

SMS, your post confused me, a lot. At first you made it seem like Super Sonic is no big deal and a little extra character to have. Then you go on and say "why not Tails and Knuckles get super forms?" Simply to have them doesn't justify any reason. Like you said, Knuckles and Tails can reach things super sonic can't with ease, yet you want them more powerful? Super Sonic is more of an extra perk to have. So you can switch characters. Big whoop. Not like it matters much since most of the people who switch are pretty much Tails from the start (no offense to good Tails players) and once setrings is enabled they switch over. I don't see a problem with that. Just let them do what they want. You make it seem like a crime.

DOOD, yes, you can create said items with thok item and extend them with a timer soc, but then why don't we see more wads like that? Because there isn't a point to them and are basically broken in match. Super Sonic drains rings because you aren't suppose to go super for the rest of the stage. It's just an extra boost to help out in certain parts. The idea you suggested leaves no room for normal play and just make the game boring.

tailsmastermind said:

DOOD, yes, you can create said items with thok item and extend them with a timer soc, but then why don't we see more wads like that? Because there isn't a point to them and are basically broken in match. Super Sonic drains rings because you aren't suppose to go super for the rest of the stage. It's just an extra boost to help out in certain parts. The idea you suggested leaves no room for normal play and just make the game boring.

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I'm pretty sure it's because most power-hungry noobs don't know how to, hence the popularity of the various SMS wads in 1.09. I'm certain that most coops that aim for Super Sonic use setrings 9999 anyway.

As for the emerald removal, you loose ONE game element, and suddenly the ENTIRE GAME is ruined? I mean, do you NEED all those emmys? They're too easy to get in Coop, why SHOULD you get Super Sonic? I mean, if emeralds were just INCAPABLE of Superness in coop aside from Pandoraing it, I'd be fine with it. I mean, why bother with Supers in coop anyway? You have several people around, why not...well...COOPERATE? Isn't that what it's for? COOPERATION? Anyone remember that? Aside from begging the serv for setrings, there is NO coop in coop. So why bother making even LESS coop in coop by adding Super Sonic?

Now, I, and probably a few others, do NOT want Super Sonic to lose his uniqueness. But at the same time, I do NOT want people just using Super Sonic in coop all the time. The solution is simple; eliminate Super ANYTHING in coop. Emeralds can stay for collecting (and that ONE thing in CEZ2, the ability to skip the dungeon segment and open the wooden gate), but that's about it. Like I said, you already have game breaking abilities via char wads and switching at will (Which I also don't like, but what can we do about that, make chars only able to switch at checkpoints?), so why get Super? Just take him out coop, except for that Pandora's box option, which is mainly just there for entertainment anyway, like all the other options in it.

D00D64 said:

It's that + spin/thok item. THNE you can just have chars that spawn invincibility and speed shoes over and over.

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I really don't care for balance in modified games, since that's basically a contradiction by nature.

D00D64 said:

As for the topic, how about making the emeralds do nothing in Coop (Aside from Emerald Triggers an such like CEZ2's gate), but the Pandora's Box feature allow all chars to do so?

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No, shut up. The emeralds are fine as they are. Sonic has the hard game so he sees some relief if he clears all the special stages. Tails and Knuckles are easier from the get go so they don't need the boost.

If people are switching to Sonic on purpose after getting all the emeralds, THEY suck, not the game's design.

Neo Chaotikal said:

If people are switching to Sonic on purpose after getting all the emeralds, THEY suck, not the game's design.

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Yeah, you are right on that. I shouldn't bother complaining about it. I mean, it IS just coop anyways.

I still see no reason for Super forms for all chars though.

Again, Superflags :<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5YZM48KFc

It might need more flags though, it's not exactly diverse enough right now.

tailsmastermind said:

SMS, your post confused me, a lot. At first you made it seem like Super Sonic is no big deal and a little extra character to have. Then you go on and say "why not Tails and Knuckles get super forms?" Simply to have them doesn't justify any reason. Like you said, Knuckles and Tails can reach things super sonic can't with ease, yet you want them more powerful? Super Sonic is more of an extra perk to have. So you can switch characters. Big whoop. Not like it matters much since most of the people who switch are pretty much Tails from the start (no offense to good Tails players) and once setrings is enabled they switch over. I don't see a problem with that. Just let them do what they want. You make it seem like a crime.

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Ya must have probably been confused because for 1P I think Tails and Knux shouldn't go Super, and in Netgames I talk way different about it.

Personally I just find the "specialness" gone when I see every single person in the netgame becoming Super Sonic. I'd prefer to see variation. Super Sonic's everything but special anyways, especially when everybody's Super Sonic, and wherever you look, you'll see someone being Super Sonic.

I mean to say it's much more refreshing to see Super Tails or Super Knuckles. In Netgames, you're overpowerd to crap anyhow with all the cheats and skin switches for every situation, so overpowerdness really plays no factor in coop netgames. It feels lame to see everyone in your netgame as Super Sonic, EVEN if they're otherwise Tails players. Besides, if they would've cared about the general gameplay rather than the details, they'd have figured Super Tails and Super Knuckles are far more overpowerd than Super Sonic in match. But we see nobody complaining about that. Coop is only good for fun's sake, otherwise all the possibilities wouldn't be there. It's 1P is dedicated to skill and gaining extras for being good and taking the hard ways, and THAT should have Super Sonic-only.

It's still special because you HAVE to be Sonic. Making other characters super does NOT make it special. Just because a bunch of people switch over to Sonic only for the use of Super does not mean it's unique-ness is gone. It's forcing people to become Sonic. It mainly just makes people want to be Sonic more. And by the way, I don't get the big point. Super is not really that important to be anyway. You don't even need it.

I think there's a slight problem in everyone's thought process on Coop.

There are three "gametypes" that we actually test and properly balance: Single Player, Match, and Capture the Flag. Cooperative mode is basically seen as "Single Player with multiple people", not a gametype on its own. If you enjoy playing through the single player game with multiple people, be our guest, we left it there for that reason, but don't think we actually design the game with Coop in mind, because we definitely don't. Cooperative is far more fun with only 2-3 people you know IRL, especially in splitscreen. When playing like that such things as everyone switching to Sonic when we get the emeralds is a simple non-issue.

Well, you did make sure the maps were compatible with coop (except for erz2 ambush :( ) so that must mean something.