Netcode Issue Reports (Report netplay issues HERE!!)

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Dedicated Co-op Servers

I've found a problem with dedicated servers.

If you're hosting a co-op server, (non-dedicated) normally if people defeat the final boss and after the credits have been played. The game would reset back to Green Flower Zone. But it doesn't seem to happen if you're hosting a dedicated co-op server.

Any clients that are connected (or attempting to connect) at this point would get timed out while expecting a game state save. And the server remains stuck that way until the host either restarts the server entirely or change the map manually.

Surely, this must be dealt with in case someone plans to host a 24/7 co-op server.
 
Monster Iestyn said:
Any idea if this issue with dedicated servers happened before 2.1.17 or not? Would help us a bit if we knew.
Click to expand...

No, not before 2.1. I remember hosting a dedicated server years before 2.1 was even released, (which contains the old credits) and there are no issue relating to that back then.

No idea what happened when 2.1 was released though.
 
I have found a problem, and I think it may have to do with the faster join that was added with 2.1.17.
Code: 
Player 5 has joined the game (node 4)
<Player 5> heya
Player 5 renamed to MarksMan
MarksMan renamed to +MarksMan
<+MarksMan> hyper super debug!
<+MarksMan> hey mill
+MarksMan left the game (Connection timeout)
<~!SSG3> i dunno
Player 5 has joined the game (node 4)
Player 5 renamed to +MarksMan
<+MarksMan> hey mill
<+MarksMan> heya
+MarksMan renamed to MarksMan
MarksMan renamed to +MarksMan
<+MarksMan> hyper super debug!
+MarksMan has been banned (test)
Player 5 left the game (Connection timeout)
<+Mill> cap the players
Player 5 has joined the game (node 4)
Player 5 renamed to +MarksMan
<+MarksMan> hey mill
<+MarksMan> heya
+MarksMan renamed to MarksMan
MarksMan renamed to +MarksMan
<+MarksMan> hyper super debug!
+MarksMan has been banned (ugh...)
<@&SD2C the Melodyhog> WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Player 5 left the game (Connection timeout)
What's going on here is that sometimes when a player leave, they join then leave again repeatedly, it all happens within a second, as if loop is happening somewhere and if a message was sent prior to leaving, the same messages get sent too. Well this don't seem like actual proof, it's definitely proof, and I'm not the only one who have seen this bug in action.
 
Problem with ALLOWTEAMCHANGE

srb20035.gif
I guess this is a netcode issue, server side.
 
I suspect it's not a server side issue specifically, but more an issue in general with changeteam and the effect of allowteamchange; it'll block you from changing to spectator with the console and in the menu, it'll block you from switching CTF/Team Match teams via the menu (which is specially coded to detect that), but anything else related to team changing bar serverchangeteam, console or menu-wise, will de-synch you from the server.
 
Last edited:
What's going on here is that sometimes when a player leave, they join then leave again repeatedly, it all happens within a second, as if loop is happening somewhere and if a message was sent prior to leaving, the same messages get sent too. Well this don't seem like actual proof, it's definitely proof, and I'm not the only one who have seen this bug in action.[/QUOTE]

I can testify, this happens more commonly on my server, and as far as I've heard, LJ doesn't seem to know what the issue is either.
 
LittleToonCat said:
I've found a problem with dedicated servers.

If you're hosting a co-op server, (non-dedicated) normally if people defeat the final boss and after the credits have been played. The game would reset back to Green Flower Zone. But it doesn't seem to happen if you're hosting a dedicated co-op server.

Any clients that are connected (or attempting to connect) at this point would get timed out while expecting a game state save. And the server remains stuck that way until the host either restarts the server entirely or change the map manually.

Surely, this must be dealt with in case someone plans to host a 24/7 co-op server.
Click to expand...

This may be caused by the changes I did to the timeout system, and if it really is, I think I know how to fix it pretty easily.
 
No LJ Sonik, this is an ancient bug. I've seen this happen many times, and it was long before your netcode changes.
 
Here is the error log when someone joined and intentionally crashed my server.
System Info:
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit using the official exe.
Version 2.1.17
SRB2 v2.1.17 -ERROR LOG-
srb2win caused an Access Violation in module srb2win.exe at 0023:0040d498.
Exception handler called in main thread.
Error occurred at 5/5/2017 18:30:42.
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe, run by family.
8 processor(s), type 586 6.10759.
Program Memory from 0x00010000 to 0x7FFEFFFF
2048 MBytes physical memory.
Write to location 003606de caused an access violation.

Registers:
EAX=ffffffff CS=0023 EIP=0040d498 EFLGS=00010287
EBX=00000001 SS=002b ESP=01a8fc20 EBP=01a8fc38
ECX=00360674 DS=002b ESI=ffc7ff90 FS=0053
EDX=00000001 ES=002b EDI=ffff7fff GS=002b
Command Line parameters: Bytes at CS : EIP:
80 ?? 8e ?? 4e ?? 07 ?? 6e ?? 00 ?? 01 ?? 89 ?? 4d ?? f0 ?? e8 ?? d9 ?? f7 ?? 0f ?? 00 ?? 8b ??
Stack dump:
01A8FC20: 000000D8 00000077 00000006 FFFFFFFF 084EA624 00000001 01A8FCB8 0040846F
01A8FC40: FFFFFFFF 00000001 01A8FCB8 00408568 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FC60: 00000000 084EA624 01A8FC98 0040D1BC 006BBD60 084EA624 00000014 00000000
01A8FC80: 0172D3F0 00000000 00000000 00000020 00051F87 00000001 01A8FCB8 0040A972
01A8FCA0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000020 00051F87 00000001 01A8FDC8 0040ABD4
01A8FCC0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FCE0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FD00: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FD20: 00000000 00000001 00054255 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FD40: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FD60: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FD80: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FDA0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000180 00000001
01A8FDC0: 00054255 00054256 01A8FE08 0040BFFB 00000000 D80FA586 00000000 00000109
01A8FDE0: 00054254 00054256 01A8FE18 0050CD49 D80FA586 00000109 00328C9B 00054255
01A8FE00: 00054255 00054256 01A8FE38 00402A1D 00000001 00054254 01A8FE38 00402AA1
01A8FE20: 01A8FE34 00000000 0043C1A0 016C8000 01A8FE68 0015F000 01A8FE78 004013D5
01A8FE40: 00681063 0015F000 00000040 01A8FE68 001B0018 00030003 00400178 0015F000
01A8FE60: 016C8000 00400000 00000040 001B0045 001B0008 00000001 001B0045 005684CF
01A8FE80: 00000001 001B0008 01B30E4A 00000002 001B0008 00000001 001B0018 01B326B5
01A8FEA0: 01826A30 01826A30 01A8FF28 005681E7 00400000 00000000 01B326B5 00000001
01A8FEC0: 778D8094 778D7DD4 006BA8EC 00568114 00000044 01B46608 01B3DEC0 01B3C988
01A8FEE0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000401
01A8FF00: 00000001 00000000 00000000 00010001 00000000 00000002 01A8FF20 778C5809
01A8FF20: 01A8FF60 FFFFFFFF 01A8FF60 004011D9 00000001 024F2848 024F1710 778ED250
01A8FF40: 01A8FF60 004011B7 778ECF15 778ECF34 00000002 024F1710 00000000 003BA000
01A8FF60: 01A8FF80 00401243 00000002 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
01A8FF80: 01A8FF94 768662C4 003BA000 768662A0 30A40EF5 01A8FFDC 779D0FD9 003BA000
01A8FFA0: 319C50F8 00000000 00000000 003BA000 C0000005 00000000 01A8F634 7714D270
01A8FFC0: 319C50F8 01A8FFA0 01A8F634 01A8FFE4 779E67B0 47922834 00000000 01A8FFEC
01A8FFE0: 779D0FA4 FFFFFFFF 779F2ED3 00000000 00000000 01826A30 003BA000 00000000
Exception encountered during stack dump.

Module list: names, addresses, sizes, time stamps and file times:
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe, loaded at 0x00400000 - 2087079 bytes - 587d3e54 - file date is 1/16/2017 17:42:44
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\igdumd32.dll, loaded at 0x04190000 - 11330576 bytes - 573dfb43 - file date is 3/9/2017 02:17:08
C:\WINDOWS\System32\MMDevApi.dll, loaded at 0x08a90000 - 352760 bytes - 58ba5a51 - file date is 3/4/2017 02:47:34
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\wdmaud.drv, loaded at 0x09640000 - 207360 bytes - 57898eb8 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libFLAC-8.dll, loaded at 0x10000000 - 367104 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\exchndl.dll, loaded at 0x603c0000 - 392704 bytes - 41486e57 - file date is 3/15/2014 13:06:10
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libintl-8.dll, loaded at 0x61cc0000 - 347910 bytes - 4d4a9e38 - file date is 3/15/2014 13:06:18
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\smpeg2.dll, loaded at 0x66240000 - 301568 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\SDL2_mixer.dll, loaded at 0x67880000 - 184320 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libvorbisfile-3.dll, loaded at 0x6b3c0000 - 62976 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\SDL2.dll, loaded at 0x6c740000 - 1007104 bytes - 53250d74 - file date is 11/11/2014 15:44:12
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libmodplug-1.dll, loaded at 0x6cb80000 - 401920 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libvorbis-0.dll, loaded at 0x6d540000 - 196096 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libgme.dll, loaded at 0x6e200000 - 488210 bytes - 516a380e - file date is 3/15/2014 13:05:58
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\D3D9.DLL, loaded at 0x6eb10000 - 1425000 bytes - 5819bf79 - file date is 11/2/2016 07:01:38
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\wintypes.dll, loaded at 0x6f0b0000 - 846560 bytes - 58d9f023 - file date is 3/28/2017 02:02:02
C:\WINDOWS\System32\PROPSYS.dll, loaded at 0x6f350000 - 1375456 bytes - 57898fc3 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\AUDIOSES.DLL, loaded at 0x6fe00000 - 484584 bytes - 58d9f880 - file date is 3/28/2017 03:10:36
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\bcrypt.dll, loaded at 0x705b0000 - 106896 bytes - 584a7c20 - file date is 12/9/2016 06:01:00
C:\WINDOWS\System32\fwpuclnt.dll, loaded at 0x705d0000 - 279040 bytes - 57898dbc - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\Windows\System32\rasadhlp.dll, loaded at 0x70620000 - 13312 bytes - 57899108 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:43:02
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\MSACM32.dll, loaded at 0x70630000 - 90912 bytes - 57898f77 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\libogg-0.dll, loaded at 0x70680000 - 47104 bytes - 52067b0b - file date is 8/10/2013 13:40:28
C:\WINDOWS\System32\XAudio2_7.dll, loaded at 0x70c50000 - 527192 bytes - 4c0641e5 - file date is 6/2/2010 07:55:30
C:\WINDOWS\System32\DEVOBJ.dll, loaded at 0x70d40000 - 132232 bytes - 578990f1 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\midimap.dll, loaded at 0x70d70000 - 18944 bytes - 5789910e - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\msacm32.drv, loaded at 0x70d80000 - 24576 bytes - 5789910f - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ksuser.dll, loaded at 0x70d90000 - 20672 bytes - 57898e69 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\avrt.dll, loaded at 0x71330000 - 29448 bytes - 57898edc - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WINMMBASE.dll, loaded at 0x71340000 - 131208 bytes - 578990a0 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WINMM.DLL, loaded at 0x71370000 - 135376 bytes - 578990ae - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\system32\dwmapi.dll, loaded at 0x714f0000 - 113504 bytes - 57dad275 - file date is 9/15/2016 13:13:52
C:\WINDOWS\system32\uxtheme.dll, loaded at 0x71510000 - 457728 bytes - 578990a4 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:43:06
C:\WINDOWS\system32\mswsock.dll, loaded at 0x71590000 - 306016 bytes - 578990a5 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\DNSAPI.dll, loaded at 0x71630000 - 497416 bytes - 58ba5c6f - file date is 3/4/2017 03:09:34
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\IPHLPAPI.DLL, loaded at 0x716b0000 - 184416 bytes - 58ba585f - file date is 3/4/2017 03:02:54
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\VERSION.dll, loaded at 0x74310000 - 27360 bytes - 5789911a - file date is 7/16/2016 07:43:06
C:\WINDOWS\System32\CRYPTBASE.dll, loaded at 0x74400000 - 31528 bytes - 57899141 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\System32\SspiCli.dll, loaded at 0x74410000 - 117240 bytes - 584a7c96 - file date is 12/9/2016 05:51:10
C:\WINDOWS\System32\gdi32full.dll, loaded at 0x74480000 - 1414728 bytes - 58d9f632 - file date is 3/28/2017 01:53:56
C:\WINDOWS\System32\OLEAUT32.dll, loaded at 0x74640000 - 601712 bytes - 58d9f4e7 - file date is 3/28/2017 02:19:28
C:\WINDOWS\System32\kernel.appcore.dll, loaded at 0x746e0000 - 43416 bytes - 5789916f - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\System32\MSCTF.dll, loaded at 0x74880000 - 1260784 bytes - 58ba5810 - file date is 3/4/2017 02:42:30
C:\WINDOWS\System32\shlwapi.dll, loaded at 0x749c0000 - 284056 bytes - 57898fba - file date is 7/16/2016 07:43:04
C:\WINDOWS\System32\SHELL32.DLL, loaded at 0x74a10000 - 20967840 bytes - 58d9f205 - file date is 3/28/2017 01:58:52
C:\WINDOWS\System32\RPCRT4.dll, loaded at 0x75e00000 - 790760 bytes - 57a55b62 - file date is 9/12/2016 21:27:58
C:\WINDOWS\System32\sechost.dll, loaded at 0x75ed0000 - 255168 bytes - 5789906f - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\System32\USER32.dll, loaded at 0x75f30000 - 1435896 bytes - 584a7a33 - file date is 12/9/2016 05:52:22
C:\WINDOWS\System32\WS2_32.DLL, loaded at 0x76090000 - 402352 bytes - 57dad27d - file date is 9/15/2016 13:37:06
C:\WINDOWS\System32\ole32.dll, loaded at 0x76160000 - 961192 bytes - 58d9f32b - file date is 3/28/2017 01:58:28
C:\WINDOWS\System32\shcore.dll, loaded at 0x76250000 - 549088 bytes - 58ba5b2c - file date is 3/4/2017 02:53:00
C:\WINDOWS\System32\windows.storage.dll, loaded at 0x762e0000 - 5721808 bytes - 58d9f24c - file date is 3/28/2017 02:04:40
C:\WINDOWS\System32\KERNEL32.DLL, loaded at 0x76850000 - 616048 bytes - 57898ef6 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:46
C:\WINDOWS\System32\GDI32.dll, loaded at 0x76930000 - 170960 bytes - 57dad2ca - file date is 9/15/2016 13:23:20
C:\WINDOWS\System32\cfgmgr32.dll, loaded at 0x76f00000 - 213848 bytes - 578990d6 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\System32\bcryptPrimitives.dll, loaded at 0x76f40000 - 367208 bytes - 57899108 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:28
C:\WINDOWS\System32\IMM32.DLL, loaded at 0x76fc0000 - 144632 bytes - 578990f0 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\System32\KERNELBASE.dll, loaded at 0x76ff0000 - 1705976 bytes - 58d9f07f - file date is 3/28/2017 02:18:08
C:\WINDOWS\System32\clbcatq.dll, loaded at 0x771a0000 - 528360 bytes - 57898ec3 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:48
C:\WINDOWS\System32\NSI.dll, loaded at 0x77290000 - 20152 bytes - 57899176 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:28
C:\WINDOWS\System32\msvcp_win.dll, loaded at 0x772a0000 - 498408 bytes - 5789909c - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\System32\powrprof.dll, loaded at 0x77320000 - 275832 bytes - 57898f27 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\System32\profapi.dll, loaded at 0x77410000 - 54752 bytes - 57899121 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\System32\ADVAPI32.DLL, loaded at 0x77420000 - 482392 bytes - 57898faf - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\System32\ucrtbase.dll, loaded at 0x774a0000 - 918304 bytes - 57898db2 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:56
C:\WINDOWS\System32\combase.dll, loaded at 0x77670000 - 2166752 bytes - 584a76ba - file date is 12/9/2016 05:59:26
C:\WINDOWS\System32\msvcrt.dll, loaded at 0x77890000 - 773168 bytes - 57899155 - file date is 7/16/2016 07:42:50
C:\WINDOWS\System32\win32u.dll, loaded at 0x77950000 - 79536 bytes - 57a023c2 - file date is 8/2/2016 00:47:22
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll, loaded at 0x77970000 - 1572768 bytes - 58256ca0 - file date is 11/11/2016 04:00:00
Feel free to ask any questions. Thank You.
 
Last edited:
Here is the RTP file of the crash.
-------------------

Error occured on Friday, May 5, 2017 at 18:30:40.

C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe caused an Access Violation at location 0040d498 in module C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe Writing to location 003606de.

Registers:
eax=ffffffff ebx=00000001 ecx=00360674 edx=00000001 esi=ffc7ff90 edi=ffff7fff
eip=0040d498 esp=01a8fc20 ebp=01a8fc38 iopl=0 nv up ei ng nz na po cy
cs=0023 ss=002b ds=002b es=002b fs=0053 gs=002b efl=00010287

Call stack:
0040D498 C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:0040D498
0040846F C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:0040846F
0040ABD4 C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:0040ABD4
0040BFFB C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:0040BFFB
00402A1D C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:00402A1D
004013D5 C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:004013D5
005684CF C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:005684CF
005681E7 C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:005681E7
004011D9 C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:004011D9
00401243 C:\Users\family\Documents\SRB2\srb2win.exe:00401243
768662C4 C:\WINDOWS\System32\KERNEL32.DLL:768662C4 BaseThreadInitThunk
779D0FD9 C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll:779D0FD9 RtlSubscribeWnfStateChangeNotification
779D0FA4 C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll:779D0FA4 RtlSubscribeWnfStateChangeNotification
 
Getting a force timeout when just joined.. (Important)

Everytime I join any server, I get a timeout out of nowhere, and I mean ANY server. Well, It rarely happens.

srb20113.gif


This bug was happening to me on the older versions from 1.09 to 2.1.20.. And now I can't play online, A few other people were getting this bug too.
 
Last edited:
Panda. said:
Getting a force timeout when just joined.. (Important)

Everytime I join any server, I get a timeout out of nowhere, and I mean ANY server. Well, It rarely happens.


This bug was happening to me on the older versions from 1.09 to 2.1.20.. And now I can't play online, A few other people were getting this bug too.[/QUOTE]

Happens with me too!
Click to expand...
 
Issues with Spectating Online

Not something big but It's been bothering me ever since I've been using the most recent build of srb2 (2.1.24). While it hasn't bothered me to a extend, it annoys my friends whenever we are trying to do something on our private server, which is when we try to spectate each, it simply breaks completely. It'll simply say "Spectating: [Insert Username]" and never go to that person, which if you try again it'll say that same person's username again and still not allow it. I've tried to just do the game with only some characters, didn't fix it. I tried to simply do it without mods, which still didn't fix the issue. I've went to the extent of redownloading srb2 and it still doesn't fix it.

I was using the 64 bit build of srb2 and I use windows 10. I use nothing but the official exe that comes with the game. I'm not sure if this is enough info, but if you need more then I'm willing to provide more
 
I could have sworn I fixed that F12 not working bug a while back, hm...

Okay, a few questions then:

* Do you play SRB2 in windowed mode or fullscreen?

* if you play in windowed mode, did you at any point lose the window focus (in order to look at another window) and then later use the mouse to get the SRB2 window back in focus?

* Just to double check, do you have the toss ring control mapped to the left mouse button? I'm aware this is part of the default control setup, yes, but I'm asking it anyway.
 
Monster Iestyn said:
I could have sworn I fixed that F12 not working bug a while back, hm...

Okay, a few questions then:

* Do you play SRB2 in windowed mode or fullscreen?

* if you play in windowed mode, did you at any point lose the window focus (in order to look at another window) and then later use the mouse to get the SRB2 window back in focus?

* Just to double check, do you have the toss ring control mapped to the left mouse button? I'm aware this is part of the default control setup, yes, but I'm asking it anyway.
Click to expand...
Well. I use a xbox one controller. The game is in fullscreen, and the window focus was never lost and even if it happened the same result happened. Toss ring is set to my left trigger.
 
Ah, ...maybe pressing a particular button on the controller somehow stops F12 working, but I have no idea what could make them do that.
 
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