Should Super Forms be in Single Player/Coop?

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The thing is, we don't really want there to be a significant reward for Ultimate. Ultimate will slowly get more and more difficult, especially if set up as originally designed (no extra lives). It's not intended to be a serious difficulty level, and therefore, it shouldn't have a serious reward. A little easter egg is exactly the kind of thing that should be unlocked.

You should not expect us EVER to provide any real or serious reward for completing Ultimate mode.

Yes. Because playing a game with absolutely no rings, starting the game off with one life with only lives being there (though I think those should be taken out) isn't in the least bit difficult for any of the beginner players and doesn't server any challenge at all for the pros. nope. not at all.
 
Wait... You mean I've been collecting the emeralds as Knuckles in SP for nothing? Aww, nuts.

Come on, what's the point of collecting them, then? It's still insidiously hard to collect the emeralds as Tails/Knuckles. I've only been able to make it to four so far.
 
Yes. Because playing a game with absolutely no rings, starting the game off with one life with only lives being there (though I think those should be taken out) isn't in the least bit difficult for any of the beginner players and doesn't server any challenge at all for the pros. nope. not at all.
I think what Mystic's trying to get at here is that Ultimate is stupidly hard. If you make it so that the player has to go through a stupidly hard task in order to unlock something really appealing like an important feature or a new set of levels, then they're going to do the stupidly hard task. More likely than not, they're also going to get frustrated, because it's stupidly hard. You don't block the player's progression and access to significant game features with a stupid task that's going to frustrate them. This is why there are no important unlocks for going through Ultimate Mode. If there is any reason why someone should want to go through Ultimate, it's because they feel like going through Ultimate. The little easter eggs are extra incentive, but the whole point is to beat it for the sake of saying "I beat Stupidly Hard Mode!"
 
I think what Mystic's trying to get at here is that Ultimate is stupidly hard. If you make it so that the player has to go through a stupidly hard task in order to unlock something really appealing like an important feature or a new set of levels, then they're going to do the stupidly hard task. More likely than not, they're also going to get frustrated, because it's stupidly hard. You don't block the player's progression and access to significant game features with a stupid task that's going to frustrate them. This is why there are no important unlocks for going through Ultimate Mode. If there is any reason why someone should want to go through Ultimate, it's because they feel like going through Ultimate. The little easter eggs are extra incentive, but the whole point is to beat it for the sake of saying "I beat Stupidly Hard Mode!"

It might just be me, but I feel much happier when I complete something frustratingly hard and get a great reward for it.

Hence why I didn't feel anything special when I beat time attack.
 
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It might just be me, but I feel much happier when I complete something frustratingly hard and get a great reward for it.

Hence why I didn't feel anything special when I beat time attack.
That's fine, but as designers, that model simply isn't a good idea. Let's take two examples:

Pokemon Diamond/Pearl have multiple main goals in the game. The first goal is to complete the game and beat the Elite Four and the Champion. The second goal is to complete the regional Pokedex. The third goal is to complete the national Pokedex. Each of these goals is successively more difficult. The designers expect most every player to be able to beat the Champion, and therefore a significant amount of material is unlocked when you do so. When you complete the regional dex, another significant amount of material is unlocked, because the designers generally expect most players will be able to do that. When you complete the national dex, however, the game doesn't unlock a whole lot. This is because the designers assume that the vast majority of players will never actually achieve a full national dex. Instead of providing significant new content, the game provides easter eggs to those that actually stick it through ones of the hardest tasks in the game.

What this means is that players don't feel compelled to complete the national dex unless they actually ENJOY the process of catching every Pokemon in the game. Those players that actually do succeed (myself included), are far more happy with the satisfaction of actually completing the task than any in-game reward the game actually provides for it, because they took it upon themselves to try for such an unrealistically hard goal and succeeded.

As a counter-example, let's take my personal whipping boy of unlockable design: Sonic Adventure 2.

Like Pokemon, SA2 provides multiple goals for unlockable rewards, culminating in the ultimate challenge of collecting all 180 emblems. Unlike Pokemon, though, SA2 provides a significant reward for the unrealistically hard goal: Green Hill Zone in 3D. This is an incredibly cool reward for many people, and therefore, almost everyone tried for it. The problem is that the process of unlocking it is insanely tedious. It requires both getting As on every stage in the game (except Cannon's Core lulz) for all five missions, but also collecting all 10 emblems for grinding in the chao minigame. Even worse, with such a variety of gameplay, it's pretty likely that someone who tries for this goal is going to end up doing something they don't actually enjoy because they're trying for the carrot on the stick at the end. I can tell you personally that if I had known how tedious grinding my Chao's stats was going to be, there is no fucking way I would have EVER seriously tried and instead I would have simply used a cheating device to get there.

This style of ultimate unlockable design simply encourages players to do things that they don't actually enjoy in order for the reward at the end. I hated the Chao minigame, but I spent hours of my life playing it purely to play Green Hill, because they put the cool unlockable behind an unrealistically hard goal.

The point here is that unlockables shouldn't require the player to do absolutely everything in the game to see everything significant there is to see. Forcing players to do that will cause them to do things they don't like to do. Imagine how much better of a game SA2 would have been if that gigantic emblem grind was simply a cool goal for those that like 100% completion, rewarding you with Green Hill at perhaps 80% of the emblems instead. Imagine how much WORSE Pokemon 4th gen would be if there was a significant amount of unlockable content if you completed the National Dex that most everyone will never actually get to play, and encouraged players to do something they might hate.

SRB2's unlockables in 2.X are aiming to be more like Pokemon in this regard. We have plenty of unlockables, but most of them are relatively easy to unlock. We genuinely expect most players who actually put forth real time playing the game to beat the game with all emeralds, for example. What we DON'T expect most players to do is complete many of the significant challenges in the game, such as Ultimate mode or getting the Time Attack emblem. This is why the rewards for being ultimate and getting all the emblems are more token rewards than anything else. I don't want to encourage players who may hate Time Attack to feel compelled to complete it simply to unlock some cool stage. I don't want to encourage players who may hate scavenger hunts to feel compelled to find all the hidden emblems because they'll miss out on something really cool if they don't. While you may be disappointed that we don't give you some epic unlockable along the lines of Green Hill for completing ultimate, I think that's FAR better than encouraging tons of players that may hate ultimate mode to play it just because they feel like they'd miss out on something important if they don't.

Hence, you should not expect any major unlockables for 100% completion or other insanely hard challenges in the future of SRB2. The reward for beating ultimate mode is the ability to say that you've completed ultimate mode on the forums. We also provide a little easter egg for those that went through the trouble, but that's just a token on top of the satisfaction of actually completing one of the hardest challenges in the game.
 
If collecting them is insidiously hard for you, you seriously need to practice more. Also, there IS a reward.

Okay. I could probably beat the special stages my second time through, but those tiny floating platforms over the water are seriously hard to master, especially the ones that fall after two seconds.

As long as there's something I get for it.

That's fine, but as designers, that model simply isn't a good idea. Let's take two examples:

Pokemon Diamond/Pearl have multiple main goals in the game. The first goal is to complete the game and beat the Elite Four and the Champion. The second goal is to complete the regional Pokedex. The third goal is to complete the national Pokedex. Each of these goals is successively more difficult. The designers expect most every player to be able to beat the Champion, and therefore a significant amount of material is unlocked when you do so. When you complete the regional dex, another significant amount of material is unlocked, because the designers generally expect most players will be able to do that. When you complete the national dex, however, the game doesn't unlock a whole lot. This is because the designers assume that the vast majority of players will never actually achieve a full national dex. Instead of providing significant new content, the game provides easter eggs to those that actually stick it through ones of the hardest tasks in the game.

What this means is that players don't feel compelled to complete the national dex unless they actually ENJOY the process of catching every Pokemon in the game. Those players that actually do succeed (myself included), are far more happy with the satisfaction of actually completing the task than any in-game reward the game actually provides for it, because they took it upon themselves to try for such an unrealistically hard goal and succeeded.

As a counter-example, let's take my personal whipping boy of unlockable design: Sonic Adventure 2.

Like Pokemon, SA2 provides multiple goals for unlockable rewards, culminating in the ultimate challenge of collecting all 180 emblems. Unlike Pokemon, though, SA2 provides a significant reward for the unrealistically hard goal: Green Hill Zone in 3D. This is an incredibly cool reward for many people, and therefore, almost everyone tried for it. The problem is that the process of unlocking it is insanely tedious. It requires both getting As on every stage in the game (except Cannon's Core lulz) for all five missions, but also collecting all 10 emblems for grinding in the chao minigame. Even worse, with such a variety of gameplay, it's pretty likely that someone who tries for this goal is going to end up doing something they don't actually enjoy because they're trying for the carrot on the stick at the end. I can tell you personally that if I had known how tedious grinding my Chao's stats was going to be, there is no fucking way I would have EVER seriously tried and instead I would have simply used a cheating device to get there.

This style of ultimate unlockable design simply encourages players to do things that they don't actually enjoy in order for the reward at the end. I hated the Chao minigame, but I spent hours of my life playing it purely to play Green Hill, because they put the cool unlockable behind an unrealistically hard goal.

The point here is that unlockables shouldn't require the player to do absolutely everything in the game to see everything significant there is to see. Forcing players to do that will cause them to do things they don't like to do. Imagine how much better of a game SA2 would have been if that gigantic emblem grind was simply a cool goal for those that like 100% completion, rewarding you with Green Hill at perhaps 80% of the emblems instead. Imagine how much WORSE Pokemon 4th gen would be if there was a significant amount of unlockable content if you completed the National Dex that most everyone will never actually get to play, and encouraged players to do something they might hate.

SRB2's unlockables in 2.X are aiming to be more like Pokemon in this regard. We have plenty of unlockables, but most of them are relatively easy to unlock. We genuinely expect most players who actually put forth real time playing the game to beat the game with all emeralds, for example. What we DON'T expect most players to do is complete many of the significant challenges in the game, such as Ultimate mode or getting the Time Attack emblem. This is why the rewards for being ultimate and getting all the emblems are more token rewards than anything else. I don't want to encourage players who may hate Time Attack to feel compelled to complete it simply to unlock some cool stage. I don't want to encourage players who may hate scavenger hunts to feel compelled to find all the hidden emblems because they'll miss out on something really cool if they don't. While you may be disappointed that we don't give you some epic unlockable along the lines of Green Hill for completing ultimate, I think that's FAR better than encouraging tons of players that may hate ultimate mode to play it just because they feel like they'd miss out on something important if they don't.

Hence, you should not expect any major unlockables for 100% completion or other insanely hard challenges in the future of SRB2. The reward for beating ultimate mode is the ability to say that you've completed ultimate mode on the forums. We also provide a little easter egg for those that went through the trouble, but that's just a token on top of the satisfaction of actually completing one of the hardest challenges in the game.

This actually makes a lot of sense.
 
Well, Mystic has a point, I don't know what else could be unlockable, although there's an empty space in the Bonus Levels menu, was it planned for some future bonues level or just forgotten?

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lol offtopic
 
I still don´t get why people wants Super powers so much in SRB2. You know, it´s awesome when you get it, but I personally don´t use it much after a few playthroughs.

Part of the fun part of Super forms in classic games were that there were so many rings and just some Super form killer traps that you could just run forward to max speed without worring nearly about anything. That´s not the case in SRB2 and will never be, as it´s clearly a more platforming game than all classic Sonic games will ever be, and if you just run forward you will have trouble soon enough. There aren´t many rings either, so unlike classic Sonic games, where you can get more than 100 rings easily by just playing any level without much exploration, SRB2 requires you to explore and take time just to get those 50 rings, so by the time you get Super you will have lost like 3-4 minutes just to get them (unless you get a token, which is easy in levels like Greenflower, but not that much after that).

Super Tails or Super Knuckles won´t make the game any more special, and anything Super could provide won´t change the fact that by the time you get 50 rings and transform any good player would be already nearly the end of the stage by that time, or at least way ahead. And you have to do it for each act. So I don´t see the point if it´s not a cheat to have fun an afternoon and then not touch it anymore.

And about unlockables, I could do things like Time Attack or Emblem Hunt (although it´s tiring after so many releases). But I really hope there won´t be anything too special for playing Ultimate, I personally don´t see the fun in that mode. The game is challenging enough, and beating Time Attack in all Stages is already a huge challenge. By the time you get Ultimate, if you have already beaten Time Attack, it´s just a more frustating mode for playing the levels you already know to death.
 
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Why? I have been around since Demo 2 and I´ve been looking any notice about the game for 10 years. How could I not like it? Just because I think SRB2 is more platforming and challenging and Super forms aren´t that great for that?

You know, SRB2 is awesome, and I truly like it, specially Egg Rock. I just don´t find Super forms that fun, they require too much work for something that you can already do without them. This discussion have been on these forums over 5 years, and I still don´t get why it´s so awesome for some people. If you want to speed through the levels, you´ll either get to the end before getting 50 rings or you´ll be so far in the level that it´ll be almost pointless.

I don´t know, that´s my opinion. The only times I have seen it useful it´s in Arid Canyon or Red Volcano. Red Volcano for running on the lava and Arid Canyon for skipping some high parts, things that aren´t that useful with Tails or Knux.
 
Either one, It's not a very nice post.
Not being obsessed over the game like almost everyone else doesn't make it a bad post.
I do disagree with what he says about getting Super Sonic, though. You can get him by THZ2 (which isn't very hard) and Rings still aren't hard to find in this game. The only Zone where they actually are is ERZ.
 
Not being obsessed over the game like almost everyone else doesn't make it a bad post.
I do disagree with what he says about getting Super Sonic, though. You can get him by THZ2 (which isn't very hard) and Rings still aren't hard to find in this game. The only Zone where they actually are is ERZ.

I´m actually not refering about emeralds, I´m talking about rings. If you just take the fastest path there aren´t many levels with 50 easy rings in the first part of the level. In classic games you actually collect them so easy in most levels that even needing 50 rings it´s like you have Super form for each level at the beginning. In S3K there are many big rings in any path too. Getting Super in each Act on SRB2 takes more effort and isn´t that overpowered (even in Death Egg or Metropolis you can´t die THAT much being Super), so I feel it´s useless for anybody but Sonic, unless you are using cheats to start with 50 rings or Super form.

Basically, in classic Sonic games they give you loads of rings everytime at every level except a few ones, but here there are less rings, and you have to actually search for them to get 50+ rings. That´s not bad, it just isn´t overpowered. And IMO, the reward of a Super form wouldn´t be that much reward for Tails or Knux. Even playing with Sonic, I don´t feel that overpowered in Super form, I usually play better in any hard level with regular Sonic.

What I´m trying to say is that Super forms aren´t that great to begin with with the SRB2 gameplay, that only Sonic gets a nice ability reward for it, and the reason behind it is that SRB2 doesn´t have that many easy rings and there are many traps that can kill you while being Super (pits, water sections, crushers, etc), with many platforming parts. So I don´t see a reason for Super Tails or Super Knuckles at all. The time you need to get Super for me it´s too much for just being invincible and faster.
 
Wow, there are two ways that I can perceive this post.
1. You dislike Srb2
2. You have very little skills at Srb2
Either one, It's not a very nice post.
There are two ways I can perceive your post.
1. You didn't even read what Knuckles MetalMind said.
2. You like to troll.
Seriously, nothing he said implied that he dislikes SRB2 even in the slightest, and nothing implied that he is bad at it either. I have no idea how you managed to draw these stupid conclusions, but they have nothing to do with what he said and completely missed the point. I also fail to see how his post is "not very nice". He didn't insult anybody, he didn't complain about anything, he just stated a completely inoffensive opinion.

With that rant out of the way, Knuckles MetalMind made some very valide points there. Super forms are not all that interesting or useful, especially not as Tails or Knuckles. With Sonic, being Super can help a great deal in levels like ERZ, because you can skip some of the really hard obstacles, but with Tails or Knuckles, you can skip those even without a Super form. The only real use of going Super with them would be to screw around a bit, and stuff like that is best left to a cheat code or unlockable (which, by the way, wouldn't hurt to be implemented, but I personally would survive without it),
 
It isn't a big deal, in the classics Sonic has to find 50 rings to turn super, in SRB2 he's lucky he has his thoking ability. It takes hard work (6th and 7th special stages make my palm sweaty >_<;;) Super-Tails or Super-Knuckles would be a little off. Tails can fly, Knuckles can glide. No troll intended, I say I don't want it to come back. It's good enough in match but for coop I don't really agree. (OFFTOPIC) Like the good days in Sonic 2-3 turning super from the special stages, all that hard work. It's a honor to Atleast be super instead of using Tails or Knuckles to cheat through the special stages.
I like using Sonic for them too, I would like to work for my emeralds :D.
 
What the hell is going on here, the point of this topic is not Super Tails and Super Knuckles, is about super forms for aditional characters into a coop server (and single player kinda)

I just kinda dislike about Sonic being the only with super form (and I almost never pick Sonic in a coop server), and I guess someone already suggested this, but if devs find it a problem about more super characters, make a cheat console command for anyone being able to be super or something (well, everyone goes super in match), so people who dislike super non sonic characters could have an idea by noticing that the server has cheats activated

And btw, depending of the super characters, they may have a distinct ability compared to Sonic, just like Tails has Extreme Whirlind Jump when going super in match
 
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