And when that vision and those values begin to change due to the project changing hands on a leadership level, at what point should the playerbase call it out? The lack of communication just makes the whole situation more egregious.
2.3 Discussion
- Thread starter The Dommo
- Start date
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Whenever we want. We are entitled to our own opinions regardless, just as STJr is entitled to make the game they want to make regardless. I feel as though a healthy relationship between the community and the devs can only be a good thing, and regular transparency would go a long way to help ensure this, especially in regards to the devs staying in touch with what kind of game their fans desire to play. However that doesn't mean that STJr is required to do so at any point. Whether we like it or not, it's still their game. The vast majority of games developed, including many fangames, were developed entirely behind closed doors. Such is the general standard, and not inherently problematic.
Zeb
Member
On the topic of transparency, I started digging through the Discord to see how much 2.3 stuff I could find. It turns out that Krabs, who is one of the developers (or maybe the only developer?) who is working on the GFZ remake also posted these screenshots (presumably taken in Ultimate Zone Builder):
I decided to dig through Krabs' comments to see what else he said pertaining to 2.3. Here's the most interesting tidbits I found. I'll use "NAME:" to indicate when the speaker changes. Note that I'm only including the interesting stuff. Obviously, there's typically several comments by several users in between each interesting message, so if you want further context, I'd recommend looking up these quotes on the Discord. I also had to reorder some comments for the sake of readibility (people tended to use multiple messages to complete a single sentence, while others were replying to the first half of what they said), and I've attempted to group the comments by topic.
---
GREENFLOWER ZONE
Krabs:
"just got sick of not posting it but there are more plans for GFZ1 beyond just refreshing the map geometry"
"seriously though I wouldn't hold your breath for full 360 degree wall running and stuff LMAO"
"SRB2 would be great with full loops and shit but some Ls you just gotta take"
"Also yeah 3d loops are hard to make fun"
"imagine how ****** it would be if we just left act 2 the same"
"I really wanna do GFZ2 justice it's my favorite s*** ever"
"the big room in GFZ2 is a core childhood memory of mine"
"removing a bunch of the walls in gfz1 was mostly a visual choice but there are some gameplay implications (that won't be bad trust me I am epic)"
"also need to touch up some of the areas that ended up looking ugly as a result"
"but I am just sick of every srb2 level being like
a canyon"
"there is a concept that does not involve a death pit involved
can't show anything yet"
"death pits in GFZ1 would be funny and bad but I don't think that's how it's gonna work in the final game. There are a few ideas but the main purpose of removing the thok barriers was a visual experiment of mine"
"this is like a first draft / proof of concept"
"also currently tails can just fly around the level and skip it which is bad"
"one thing I really wanted to do was have the eggman mountain be more visible"
"so you get a nice view of it on the first room"
"but yeah there is a lot of work left to do (also I see all of the criticism and feedback, i just cant respond to everyone)"
"also not 100% happy with the water color"
"im just sick of devetopment being empty so I will hopefully be posting more *** in there"
"gfz2pog is unrelated to this"
"I've been honestly back and forth on my opinion of death pits
it might be nice to just change them to hurt the player and respawn them quickly
just as a game-wide change"
"The other issue with chopping down tons of thok barrier walls is performance sadly"
"although the current GFZ1 sketch runs great"
"funnily enough death pits are in sonic 1 green hill"
"but yeah I agree it could be really wack if done badly / done at all"
"it's something that will need some more thought and attention"
SSNTails: "Please turn path after the first bridge in gfz2 into a half pipe (at least on the side that would help you make the turns)"
"Always wanted to be able to run up the wall as an extra option instead of that floating elevator to the ring shield"
"Would also be cool if that first turn in gfz1 was more like the inside of a torus (see SRBX), but that would probably require a bajillion sectors and I’m not sure how nice it would play with the engine"
CEO of 'CEO of ___'✞: "In order to make it look nice, then, we would literally NEED to make sloperollangle an official feature"
SSNTails: "That kind of stuff starts to scream 'rewrite all gameplay code'"
Krabs: "The thing is full wall running isn't really in the cards right now"
"at least not at a level of quality I'd want"
SSNTails: "Yeah, I know. Just saying what my imagination had"
"But sloping the turns leading up to the yellow springs would be neat"
Krabs then posted one of the screenshots.
Krabs: "the bushes by the wall obscure a spin only path"
Avalice: "where are the thok barriers??"
Krabs: "They're tentatively gone."
ChaseSP: "wip/testing visuals"
Avalice: "What happens if you try to go past them" (referring to the borders of the map)
Krabs: "the map is an experimental take on removing thok barriers entirely"
"at the moment, it's a death pit, but there are a few alternative ideas because I am very conflicted / hesitant to have death pits in GFZ. A recent version of this map did use invisible walls that were visually similar to thok barriers as well"
"it's being iterated on a lot"
Avalice: "I feel like maybe it shouldn’t just be a floating island in the middle of the abyss"
Krabs: "The water is visible in the skybox"
SSNTails: "I’m more keen on enhancing gfz2 than 1… watch the mega man game design video on YouTube
MEGA MAN MEGA MAN!!!"
Krabs: "GFZ2 is very special to me honestly. I'd love to do it justice"
"huge childhood memory of mine"
SSNTails: "But as a standalone product, I think what you’re doing looks great"
Sum: "i dunno, i feel gfz should be larger"
SSNTails: "The 2.2 stages are already too dang big"
"My first experience with 2.2, I started feeling bored wondering when I was at the end of each map"
Krabs: "This gfz1 sketch is already significantly wider than the original, it's just not much longer"
"I'm not really trying to turn GFZ1 into a giant level, the main goals are to make it feel more roomy and visually appealing and incorporate more sonic-like slopes. The actual size of the map is not much bigger than the OG version"
"also it may not be obvious but the GFZ1 in devetopment is from scratch, I just had the original on my 2nd monitor to closely mimic things like sector shapes and the layout of objects"
SSNTails: "Oh nice. I love the faithfulness of it"
Krabs: "would likely do the same for act 2"
One user commented: "I'm assuming what you've done is not actually what is to be added in 2.3 but only your interpretation of the level, krabs"
Krabs: "it was made with 2.3 in mind and is not set in stone or finished"
Some other user: "guys i don't think we should redesign levels anymore
let's just rerelease beta quest and call it there"
SSNTails: "Recreating gfz2 from scratch might be kinda nuts tho"
Krabs: "Honestly the GFZ thicc mods do bother me since they're so empty but they have made a good case that the zone is a bit claustrophobic at the moment"
"of course making them that big would suck"
"also yeah people just use them to test 10x momentum mods + sms + whatever"
One user asked: "but heres the real question would you rather have a small enclosed area or a large open area for a momentum based sonic game
especially since its the first level"
Krabs: "what if... a medium area..."
"GFZ2 is plenty big for that kind of gameplay, GFZ1 can focus a bit more on a more compact / cozy feeling"
---
TECHNO HILL
At one point, the subject of THZ Act 2 came up, to which he said the following:
"It was amazing back when it was remade in 2.1 but now it's slightly dated IMO"
"There's been a trend in 2.2 levels to make geometry more sonic-like in general
THZ2 is more like the final form of a sick 2.1 era level"
Cookiefonster: "what in particular would you say is dated about thz2? i mean, i totally agree that it's slightly less modern than most of the other levels"
Krabs: "THZ1 and THZ2 actually strictly adhere to only using 90 and 45 degree angles
which is not something that has to go
I actually like that a lot"
---
UNLOCKABLE LEVELS
In response to a discussion about Techno Legacy being a questionable choice for an unlockable level, Krabs said:
"Think I said this before but SRB2TP does a better job at preserving the game's history so I don't really see a need to keep techno legacy"
"plus old versions are mostly very well documented and available"
"i thought it was kinda cool"
"but an oddly specific choice of level to include"
"unlockable levels / content come second to the actual main content that is being cooked for 2.3 but they do need improvements"
---
COMMUNICATION, RELEASE SCHEDULE, AND UPDATE SCOPE
Someone asked: "Alright but real talk, is every zone in the game getting revamped to be suitable for the new physics with the addition of some new ones?"
Krabs: "All I will say is that I would like to see 2.3 come out before the heat death of the universe"
In a later discussion, Krabs said:
"also I'm not like 1000% sure #dev is the best way to show updates anymore but I enjoy the discussions that have come up from the gfz1 screens"
"not really sure I like the mystery aspect"
Another discussion:
"there is a LOT to do to improve SRB2 beyond what has been shown off (obviously)"
one user commented: "dude, if development cycles has taught us anything, is that the devs are going to randomly release the update somewhere betwen IT'S OUT NOW and the next 5 years"
Krabs: "not now LMAOOO
I gotta discuss with the other devs but I kinda want to like, de-mystify dev plans at some point and just explain our roadmap once its more concrete"
In yet another discussion, one user said: "i am excited for whatever main content is going to come in 2.3 and i assume at this point that the pattern of "major version of srb2 every five years" is going to be broken"
Krabs: "I'd like for that pattern to be broken yeah"
---
AMY
when asked if Amy could bounce off walls...
Krabs: "Everything amy can do is in the video
except the sfx are likely going to change"
(referring to a recent GIF in devetopment channel)
---
FANG
"Fang's changes are done but awaiting some things before I can post a vid of them"
---
Keep in mind that these are only the comments/opinions of a single dev, so don't infer too much from these statements. But hopefully that gives everyone a better idea of what's going on with at least one of the developers.
Post automatically merged:
For those keeping up with this thread in realtime: I just added a bunch more to the start of the GFZ section, and fixed some disordered comments.
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InfernoMelon
Honwy is cooilo dudey
Wait, is this ACTUALLY going to be the new Greenflower Act 1 for 2.3 because if it is, this is a major yikes from me like this looks like random stuff put together without no meaning and is non-beginner friendly for new players, this is the FIRST ZONE for fuck sake also why bother changing something that's not broken???, literally do the level design developers know what doing or is they stupid?
RedLilyQueen
Member
I think, rather than the bottomless pits beyond the level's boundaries taking a life, they should make it so you only lose your rings/shield and get teleported back to where you were last on stable ground. I don't know how feasible that would actually be to build into an engine like SRB2's, but it seems among the better solutions to me.
I understand for small development screenshots but I really hope that they don't lock important roadmap posts/updates behind being in the discord. People really need to break the habit of using discord as a platform for dumping everything, it is really not the place for that.
Jammin'
I fucking hate the average person on this site.
I'm extremely late, but I want to give my two cents on this.
Greenflower Zone is the first zone in the game. Let the thing pass because
- Greenflower is the first experience anyone has with the game. Just because they're not throwing you in the deep end before the player reaches the first checkpoint doesn't mean it's shitty level design. We've probably barely seen half of what the stage has to offer. And in the last screenshot, it clearly forks out into multiple paths which actually looks pretty interesting.
- The lack of thok barriers is unusual to look at because you've pretty much never seen Greenflower looking like it does in those screenshots. It looks perfectly fine if seen as a work-in-progress. There's tons of room for improvement, so give them a minute to figure that out.
- They can take as long as they want. Duke Nukem Forever isn't a good comparison because it was unacceptable for a game company to take that long for a product like that. Not to mention how taxing that title was to create. SRB2 is different because it's done by a bunch of hobbyists in their free time.
Sandwichface
Trash Bin connoisseur
The current GFZ1 doesn't "throw you into the deep end" at all. What are you talking about?
It looks unnatural because there's no thok barriers. The thok barriers in GFZ1 currently are natural-looking level borders that convey to the player "Ok, the level doesn't extend beyond this point" in a simple, yet effective way. The new GFZ1 just replaces this with... invisible walls, which don't convey where the borders are at all.
Additionally, Greenflower Zone takes place in a valley at the base of a mountain, lore-wise. This doesn't carry that same energy. It looks more like a random chunk of land floating in the middle of nowhere. It looks more like a video game level than anywhere I could actually see myself visiting.
Granted, this direction for the level is just an experiment, although I do hope this isn't the route they take for GFZ1 (or any future SRB2 level).
When I brought up Duke Nukem Forever, I was referring to the fact that the developers of that game were obsessed with bringing the game up to "modern" standards constantly, and kept overhauling the game over and over again because of that (which is one of the reasons the game took so long to release).
I probably should've clarified that in my original post, so that's my mistake.
one more player for srb
srb2 forever 💨👟 I use a translator spanish lol
aaah there are too many changes 0_o
RedSRB2
Designing PolySonic OCs since 2022
I mean, 2.3 will be superior in 2.2 in every possible way, so that means this is nessecary.
Zeb
Member
I just had an idea for what could be done on the GFZ1 borders: a water current. Imagine rolling waves of water (sorta like the lava wave in RVZ1) surrounding the act (or at least the earlier part of it) that carry a player back to the start of the zone (thematically fitting in with the addition of water to the starting room). A player could jump out of the current and back onto the ground to avoid being taken all the way back, and perhaps even use the waves as a clever shortcut to reach certain platforms.
This would blur the line between "in-bounds" and "out-of-bounds", thus helping to sell the illusion that the island is part of a larger world, as opposed to a floating chunk of terrain in the middle of a void... and it would accomplish this without having to rely on walls everywhere, visible or otherwise. (Obviously, you'd still have invisible walls further out, but the average player would no longer perceive their existence unless they're actively trying to fly/glide away from the island.)
Alternatively (or additionally), you could have an orca pop out of the water to bounce the player back onto the stage every time they go into the water. That would be cute (and consistent with existing Sonic lore, as demonstrated in Generations Seaside Hill Act 2).
On another topic, I find it funny that Arid Canyon, despite literally being a canyon, doesn't have any of the "canyon"-style thok barriers that Krabs doesn't like. Combined with the heavy emphasis on sloped terrain and physics-based gimmicks (whirlwinds, collapsing floors, and to a lesser extent: pulleys) in the zone, you could argue that ACZ is already built in the newer 2.3 style of level design.
The same also applies to Castle Eggman, which uses its night-time (and presumably mountain-top) setting to obscure and excuse its death pits (especially in Act 1), and which also incorporates a significant amount of functional (i.e. not merely decorational) sloped terrain and physics gimmicks (the swings and more complex usage of springs) into its platforming challenges.
I'd be willing to bet that these two zones are the least likely to change in 2.3, outside of basic polish, expansions (CEZ2 technically wasn't completed, if you can believe it), and tweaks to account for whatever physics/moveset changes are committed.
This would blur the line between "in-bounds" and "out-of-bounds", thus helping to sell the illusion that the island is part of a larger world, as opposed to a floating chunk of terrain in the middle of a void... and it would accomplish this without having to rely on walls everywhere, visible or otherwise. (Obviously, you'd still have invisible walls further out, but the average player would no longer perceive their existence unless they're actively trying to fly/glide away from the island.)
Alternatively (or additionally), you could have an orca pop out of the water to bounce the player back onto the stage every time they go into the water. That would be cute (and consistent with existing Sonic lore, as demonstrated in Generations Seaside Hill Act 2).
On another topic, I find it funny that Arid Canyon, despite literally being a canyon, doesn't have any of the "canyon"-style thok barriers that Krabs doesn't like. Combined with the heavy emphasis on sloped terrain and physics-based gimmicks (whirlwinds, collapsing floors, and to a lesser extent: pulleys) in the zone, you could argue that ACZ is already built in the newer 2.3 style of level design.
The same also applies to Castle Eggman, which uses its night-time (and presumably mountain-top) setting to obscure and excuse its death pits (especially in Act 1), and which also incorporates a significant amount of functional (i.e. not merely decorational) sloped terrain and physics gimmicks (the swings and more complex usage of springs) into its platforming challenges.
I'd be willing to bet that these two zones are the least likely to change in 2.3, outside of basic polish, expansions (CEZ2 technically wasn't completed, if you can believe it), and tweaks to account for whatever physics/moveset changes are committed.
GS_HD
Member
Gosh that GFZ remake looks gorgeous, and has plenty of places to explore and slopes to mess around with. can't wait to try it.
Real
Real
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Personally, I just want to see Dark City and Grand Eggship and Red Volcano Act 2.
Remakes of old stages can be cool (and GFZ1 is really nothing to write home about) but I will never be excited about it unless:
#1: It's a complete overhaul from the ground up
#2: I already have been shown Dark City, Grand Eggship, and Red Volcano Act 2, which are the more important prerequisites I really want first.
That's just how it is for me.
Remakes of old stages can be cool (and GFZ1 is really nothing to write home about) but I will never be excited about it unless:
#1: It's a complete overhaul from the ground up
#2: I already have been shown Dark City, Grand Eggship, and Red Volcano Act 2, which are the more important prerequisites I really want first.
That's just how it is for me.
Soniku11
Member
Lets be honest here, in a wide ass map, with HUGE slopes like the GFZ shown here, having this its a double edged sword.
Theres gotta be some limits on where you can have freedom of movement, or where you shall place a barrier, because in a map like the GFZ shown here, players that arent quick enough, might not be able to react in time while running mindlessly, ending on running themselves off a cliff, because how wide are the slopes, giving not much window to react if you cant see whats at your feet if you launch yourself off a ramp at mach 4, while having nothing behind that ramp, acting as the border of such platform
Whoexer9
Life gives you lemons~
So... I found these previews on the SRB2 Wiki. Starting from the top and going down:
Techno Hill Zone Act 1 is getting a remake with a all new jet steam gimmick.
The new jet steams lunches you like those springs and puts you into a "Jump State" meaning you can use your ability after you got lunched.
Egg Rock Zone IS getting a remake, and has a new room in one of the acts.
(I have no idea what are these purple things for.)
The new Menus where showed off for the first time.
Have no idea if people here talked about this, but worth showing off.
ANYWAYS, I'm glad Egg Rock Zone is getting a remake in 2.3, as the 2.2 Egg Rock is the same as 2.1, but somethings has changed/removed. Whatever happed to the one showed off in that 20th Anniversary Trailer?
Techno Hill Zone Act 1 is getting a remake with a all new jet steam gimmick.
The new jet steams lunches you like those springs and puts you into a "Jump State" meaning you can use your ability after you got lunched.
Egg Rock Zone IS getting a remake, and has a new room in one of the acts.
(I have no idea what are these purple things for.)
The new Menus where showed off for the first time.
Have no idea if people here talked about this, but worth showing off.
ANYWAYS, I'm glad Egg Rock Zone is getting a remake in 2.3, as the 2.2 Egg Rock is the same as 2.1, but somethings has changed/removed. Whatever happed to the one showed off in that 20th Anniversary Trailer?
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As version 2.3 is being worked on, the only new campaign maps likely to appear are RVZ2 and 3 while DCZ and GEZ are both, worked on and being finished in a same version that goes after 2.3. Also, I do expect that RVZ's boss would be set in a crator with Eggman's boss machine perhaps having a resemblance to the Hot Mobile from Sonic 3 and Knuckles but with different colors instead of purple.
Zeb
Member
I'm guessing the Egg Rock room in that screenshot is the replacement for the central shaft in Act 2, and I'm guessing there's probably some kind of turrets/enemies in the central column, which the purple things serve to limit the sight/range of.
Here's the full GIF from the devetopment (sic) channel on the Discord: https://discord.com/channels/357945222111428609/732377262045003837/1073607844567470201
...and here's an older image of it from October 21, 2022 (which, being a few months older, is missing some details):
The same dev ("(9)sphere") also posted this back in August 2021:
...which seems to confirm that this image in my downloads folder is legit (I can't recall where I got it from, but it's clearly of the same area as the GIF in that tweet):
Here's the full GIF from the devetopment (sic) channel on the Discord: https://discord.com/channels/357945222111428609/732377262045003837/1073607844567470201
...and here's an older image of it from October 21, 2022 (which, being a few months older, is missing some details):
The same dev ("(9)sphere") also posted this back in August 2021:
...which seems to confirm that this image in my downloads folder is legit (I can't recall where I got it from, but it's clearly of the same area as the GIF in that tweet):