How do you feel about the thok being replaced?

TrailBlazer said:
Yeah. It’s just that you’d expect Sonic to have somewhat of a harder time compared to everyone else when dealing with them because he has no native ability to fly away from his problems. But there’s no problem to worry about when the enemies can’t get close enough to touch you anyways.

Sonic is also presented as the “hard” character to play as when in reality he’s only hard compared to everyone else because he has no tools to save him from big platforming mistakes if he goes too low to thok back onto a platform as well as the thok itself being somewhat unwieldy for newcomers to use effectively when the other abilities that characters have are way more appealing and safe to use at the cost of not having the fastest horizontal movement speed.
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You make a point about Sonic having no native way to avoid platforming mistakes that the other characters have, which in turn makes him the harder mode, but hasn't that been the case ever since the Genesis games? Sonic has always been the character (even to this day, with Sonic Frontiers) in which the game forces the player to interact with the mechanics of the stages moreso than the other characters. To give him a new more that allows him to skip challenges like the others IMO destroys his game design philosophy. Maybe Sonic Team Jr. wants this, which is their decision, but I hope they do realize this.
 
although thok is something that srb2 has had since xmas 0.90, it's really a bit strange to see a character's ability changing for another but I won't go into detail about that

What if the thok has had moments when a vertical movement is better than a horizontal one since in some parts of the levels that is required when you play with sonic alone

I will proceed to summarize a little the history of thok until today...

Xmas 0.90: we don't have much information about what it was like but supposedly it was a very weak impulse

Xmas 0.92: the thok here was a half-baked homing attack, since I tried this version for a video I was making and what it does is grab the first enemy it sees and approach it to kill it... and if it weren't for the physics Of that version it would be useful but instead the enemy did not die and instead Sonic shot in another direction (resulting in most of the times in death)

Xmas 0.93 - Final demo 1.04: Multi thok...nothing more

Final demo 1.08 - current: multi thok no longer exists and has remained that way since then

I think that by looking at the evolution of the thok you can realize that it is an attempt at a homing attack...I'm not complaining, honestly.
 
Here's an idea. Let people have options. Stop trying to decide the optimal play style for other people and just give them tools to have fun with. You guys act like this is rocket science.
 
NormalGraham said:
Here's an idea. Let people have options. Stop trying to decide the optimal play style for other people and just give them tools to have fun with. You guys act like this is rocket science.
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i don't have any strong opinions on whether the thok should be replaced but i will always assert that this is a horrible idea. i can see the intent going on here, but if you add the ability to switch between the thok and the new ability in the vanilla game, you're really just forcing stjr's level designers to either:

A. design around seven characters instead of six, or;
B. design around the possibility that players could have any option set at all times, which can severely affect the way levels can be designed (as an example this is something that i think sonic frontiers suffers from as well, by giving the players too many options to adjust it has to water down any complexity in its level design to accommodate every possible setting combination)

it's better to leave moveset options to modding, since 1. chances are if you're delving into mods you're going to be editing multiple facets of the game and 2. you can save with mods now anyway.
 
SilverVortex said:
i don't have any strong opinions on whether the thok should be replaced but i will always assert that this is a horrible idea. i can see the intent going on here, but if you add the ability to switch between the thok and the new ability in the vanilla game, you're really just forcing stjr's level designers to either:

A. design around seven characters instead of six, or;
B. design around the possibility that players could have any option set at all times, which can severely affect the way levels can be designed (as an example this is something that i think sonic frontiers suffers from as well, by giving the players too many options to adjust it has to water down any complexity in its level design to accommodate every possible setting combination)

it's better to leave moveset options to modding, since 1. chances are if you're delving into mods you're going to be editing multiple facets of the game and 2. you can save with mods now anyway.
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what do you mean, the thok is super simple as is and it wouldn't require rocket science to account for it.... or any science at all. If they just make fun levels and 9 times out of 10, you could most likely beat it with the thok
unless you would like to give a example to why that is such a hard thing to do
 
I have a feeling that one of the first few mods released for 2.3 in the future could be a restoration of the Speed Thok, Idk but that's just a prediction.
 
Why not just forget that idea and finish the rest of Single Player stages? It's already 14 years since Red Volcano didn't receive an act 2 and 3, Egg Rock Zone is still the same as 2.1 or even 2.0, but no, for some reason the devs just decided to remove the hability and modify all Single Player stages again like GFZ1 and it'll take 5 years or more to complete because "eww thok, SRB2 needs to be all momentum like Utopia!". I must be wrong, but I think it's all a waste of time, it's not a smart decision. I don't think it's necessary to modify everything again in a fangame made from an old and limited engine to make sure everything is perfect like a Monalisa art or a truly 3D sonic game that's better than official ones because it's impossible. 2.2 was already a big jump in quality and ig it's good enough. Don't forget you are dealing with a 20 year old fangame that uses an old and scrapped engine from 90s. There's more important things to focus that nobody cared for years but still we are here discussing silly things like a a air dash being good or bad cuz <Insert 2050 reasons here>. But, well, it's just my opinion, feel free to agree with it or not. I'm not very good at english so I can't write a really good and complex texts for now. See ya!
 
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CG64 said:
"eww thok, SRB2 needs to be all momentum like Utopia!".
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Y'know, there's something contradictory to this sentence: Sonic Utopia has an small air dash move, which also can home in to enemies, which is kind of similar to, y'know, a homing attack, and if we count the small boost in the air if you pressed the jump button, a thok.
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Vincent The Rabbear said:
Y'know, there's something contradictory to this sentence: Sonic Utopia has an small air dash move, which also can home in to enemies, which is kind of similar to, y'know, a homing attack, and if we count the small boost in the air if you pressed the jump button, a thok.
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There's also one thing about Utopia that I don't like: It's overrated.
 
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Vincent The Rabbear said:
Y'know, there's something contradictory to this sentence: Sonic Utopia has an small air dash move, which also can home in to enemies, which is kind of similar to, y'know, a homing attack, and if we count the small boost in the air if you pressed the jump button, a thok.
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You basically described the Homing Attack from SA1 and SA2. I mentioned Sonic Utopia in terms of momentum, not hability. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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i've already kinda told my side of the story here, but since i came in when this post kinda begun, i'll give more info about it:
to the folks who have mentioned an option in player 1/2 controls, or an option in general to toggle the thok and the new ability... it's very likely there will NOT be it, the main devs have basically already said (in the discord) that an option to toggle sonic's ability will never happen, whether it be an option in the menu, or it be a command, it's either thok stays, or thok will be removed (i find that kinda sad, but the devs have spoken)
obviously, the main reason for the thok being replaced is momentum and it being more accurate to the classics... srb2 has never really been accurate to classic sonic games (besides being a 3d game, of course), stuff like the springs functioning differently or the level design being very different from how sonic 2 or sonic 3 would've done it, srb2 does NOT need to be sonic mania 2, or whatever, it's a fangame for a reason, originality is key
now, i get why the thok would be removed from a conceptual standpoint, i've heard that the thok was only made as a substitute for the fast-paced gameplay of sonic when momentum and slopes were basically a pipe-dream (back in xmas), thus ssn & sonikku implemented the thok, a basic instant speed move, and people grew attached to it
we've kinda made the thok a "staple part of srb2", if the thok was removed in say, final demo or something, people probably wouldn't mind the new ability (as much as we do now)
i'm in support of the thok staying, but i do want to project another side of the story here: the thok was made as a substitute to momentum back in 1998-1999, and srb2 is planning on having it's own momentum. i've made suggestions on thok replacements or thok modifications, most already implemented in other mods (FSonic's thok improved, rebound dash, xmomentum's momentum thok (rebalanced)), but we've only seen a bite-sized portion of what the new ability is, it's been months since we've even SEEN the new ability, letalone actually played it, chances are it's been modified a heavy amount from now, but we will never know for sure
i hope everyone can take this into account when talking about the thok: the thok is (technically) an overpraised ability that was only made as a psuedo-momentum in xmas
hopefully, though, the thok CAN stay as an ability in the game's files, and sonic's ability will either be hardcoded to only function with sonic or be another character ability like the thok (i'm sure the power spin could be useful in some spots before the level design would switch to be more momentum-focused)
basically my stance on it is: i'm definitely still in support of the thok staying, but if the new sonic ability will be as good as the thok, i won't mind too much about it being replaced... i don't even really play match that much, anyway
 
i think thok should just go because if you really want it back, somebody will definitely mod it in pretty quickly once 2.3 comes out.
 
gamthegamer said:
i think thok should just go because if you really want it back, somebody will definitely mod it in pretty quickly once 2.3 comes out.
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Except for the fact that the reason the thok is being removed in the first place is because it supposedly isn't compatible with the upcoming physics/momentum changes.
"Mod it back in!" is little more than a band-aid solution that doesn't address the fact that the thok would play and function completely differently because of the different physics.
It won't be the same ability and this won't actually solve anything.
 
Sandwichface said:
Except for the fact that the reason the thok is being removed in the first place is because it supposedly isn't compatible with the upcoming physics/momentum changes.
"Mod it back in!" is little more than a band-aid solution that doesn't address the fact that the thok would play and function completely differently because of the different physics.
It won't be the same ability and this won't actually solve anything.
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Yeah, and were just fans of this game. There is no point into stopping the creators, were literally doomed for this ability to be replaced or revamped. Even though it was meant to be half of the homing attack in the game, it was changed in 0.94 to a multi-thok. But still, there is no way to solve a issue.
 
if sonic can do the same tails and knuckles can, then that would make the 2 useless. so i have an idea to fix that: removing every unmodded character entirely. clearly they will be used less because sonic (mostly) has both tails and knuckles' abilities, so whats the point of having them at all?
 
SonicHacker141 said:
if sonic can do the same tails and knuckles can, then that would make the 2 useless. so i have an idea to fix that: removing every unmodded character entirely. clearly they will be used less because sonic (mostly) has both tails and knuckles' abilities, so whats the point of having them at all?
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this implies that any verticality whatsoever makes any other character with verticality redundant. This confuses me, as tails and knuckles coexist perfectly fine. how is 2 vertical characters perfectly fine, but a third vertical character some how makes having any more than 1 completely redundant?
 
SonicHacker141 said:
if sonic can do the same tails and knuckles can, then that would make the 2 useless. so i have an idea to fix that: removing every unmodded character entirely. clearly they will be used less because sonic (mostly) has both tails and knuckles' abilities, so whats the point of having them at all?
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i'll admit, this is kinda a bad way of putting it here: i don't think sonic is supposed to have 0 verticality (or negative verticality) at all, i believe sonic has, as a proud member of whatever his world is called, a right to have verticality! (but to be serious, knuckles and tails are both vertical character, knuckles' downside is that he has to climb walls (and sometimes can't climb them), and can't jump as high, but it really doesn't change that vertical aspect much)

the rebound dash, guys, or maybe star thok, or a mix of both (with some expected slight nerfs), it's RIGHT THERE, and BOTH mods are made by prominent members of the srb2 community (one of them being a dev for thok's sake!)
i have been preaching this for like, maybe a year or so now, probably, it's the like, the slightly imperfect but a good enough thok replacement solution that won't get everyone boiling their blood probably!
i'll take criticism, tell me what i can fix to make this hypothesis work! (we are boiling down the thok to a SCIENCE)
 
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